Gary Numan Digest Sun, 24 Nov 96 Volume 1 : Issue 282 Today's Topics: 10 ways to spot a numanoid A child with the ghost Child with the ghost (2 msgs) Critiques And The Men Who Love Them Devil's advocate? Gary Numan back on Beggars Banquet ! Gary Numan Digest V1 #281 (2 msgs) Hi, my name is Alyssa, and I'm a Gary Numanolic.... I need stories Is there anybody out there... (2 msgs) Live Debate Section on AFE Numanoids 'R' Us Of honesty and intolerance Question for Alexander Deacon Response to Alexander Deacon's Post The Unborn Part 2 Weddings ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: 23 Nov 96 13:52:49 EST From: Nigel Day <100675.1253@CompuServe.COM> Subject: 10 ways to spot a numanoid To: numan Hello fellow numanoids ;-) Thought it was high time that I contributed something to this "mailing list" I was going to write about Machine & Soul but there is no way I can find anything positive to say about an album that truly does suck. Given the choice I would rather be shagged by a dozen sailors down a dark alley :-)D I was going to add to Alexander Deacons fairly well-written critique about this digest, but as that would be far too obvious if you are one of those "in the know" I wont. (He was right though-for once) Instead I think I will start off a lovely little thread that should keep us going for a couple of digests at least. I'm calling it "Why is the average Numan fan such a cock?" When I was a boy, all those years ago, Numan was an icon to me, an enigma. As years went by I soon began to see that this man of mystery was in reality a bit of a nob. O.K a talented nob, but still a nob. Unlike his contemporaries/influences John Foxx or Bowie, Numans image was well and truly jumble sale. I refuse to believe that anyone can hold up the Beserker or Warrior looks as the height of cool. If there is anyone out there who finds these hip and happening, your middle name must surely be Tasteless !! Or probably Clueless !! However Gazzers crimes against popular culture are miniscule compared to those of his fans !! Now before I get stamped on by a load of irate Futurists baying for my blood I have to point out here that as is usual in case like this it is the minority who colour the rest of us. Numan fans on the whole are probably sane, down-to-earth people who like nothing better than going to work, playing dad and getting on down to Dire Straits :-( Being a fan can sometimes distract from the harsh truths of fandom-try taking a non admirer of GN's to a gig and see the reaction. One of the funniest sights I have ever seen was at a recent Numan show. where this guy in front of us was jigging about to the atrocity that is "Love and Napalm" dressed from head to toe in Warriors gear. He had to be all of 16 stone and I'm convinced that had his G.P been there he would have immediately whisked this poor fellow off to surgery. The sweat pouring off him was a sight to behold. Other classic Numanoids are the ones who dress up in Pleasure Principle clobber and walk around clutching their pyramids and intoning the lyrics to "Engineers" under their breath (See Alex) Or the ones WHO really do DREAM of wires and talk like THIS. hee HEE There are some benefits about being a Numanoid....it's O.K to have spots or start losing your hair. For those who can't afford the transplants, a handy felt pen can easily recreate that subtle "stitched hair-piece" effect as modelled on the inside of the Warriors sleeve. And you can guarantee that the entire 'I, assassin" album cover could effortlessly be remodelled after an afternoon trudging round the Oxfam shops in the locality. I love those shoes :-) It is a shame that someone who has made a couple of classic albums in his time and who was such a hero to me in my youth has become such a sad character. I often wonder who the real enemy is: is it Numan himself who does himself no favours at all in his questions and answers "column" on here. Or is it the/some of the fans who in many ways become the public face of any artist? I have been to many gigs in my time, but I have never seen such a motley crew as at Numan gigs. And that's just the ones on the stage :-) However, I do think that Exile will be a good album...even if going by the tracks I have heard played live it still has the same drum track on it that Sacrifice did. Even so, compared to a lot of what is contemporary in this day and age, it is still going to sound about as cutting-edge as Yes or Landscape:-) It's no good that Numan continuously re-writes old Depeche Mode songs (losing any of the aforementioned sexiness, style and darkness in the process), he really does need to do something about his attitude, his advisors and his fan base. And if the sorry bunch who lurk on this mailing list are atypical of Gary's fans...then I 'd go back to working in WHSmiths mate. Nigel Who is sick of people writing to me moaning and groaning about THINGS and who wishes these PEOPLE would have the guts to speak up FOR once. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 10:19:00 GMT From: Matthew Tamea Subject: A child with the ghost To: "'Numannews'" >Subject: child with the ghost >To: numan@cs.uwp.edu > >anyone know anything interesting about this song? i really like it, even >after not hearing it for years. > >erin I could be wrong (surely not!! :)), but if I remember rightly I think this is about Paul Gardiner, well Paul Gardiner's daughter I think. I'm pretty sure I haven't dreamt this but I could be getting Paul mixed up with someone else. Anyone else know if I'm talking out my arse? Matthew ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:11:52 +0000 (GMT) From: Andy Subject: Child with the ghost To: numan@cs.uwp.edu <> It was a song on the Berserker album which was written not long after his old bass player, Paul Gardiner, died from a heroin overdose. Not a happy song, but one of my favourite slower songs... <> I think its simpler than what you think Alexander. It's simply that currentrly there's no Numan activity going on. I dont think we need to bring your old arguments back to the fore. It only starts them all off again.. I dont think either that this list is intolerant of critiscism. Ive quite often expressed negative criticism about Gary either here or in my questions, and havent had any flak for it. Maybe its more to do with the way the criticisms have been put. We all know that Gary inspires great loyalty, and people are less likely to be critical of him or his work, but its not a big deal if its done positively. <> As far as I can see, its probably you, cos Ive always found his answers (even to the most irrelevant questions) to be both polite, funny, and honest. Even Phil Marsh's (I think) question about "wig, weave, or transplant'! Gary Numan doesnt owe us anything more than any artist owes their followers. He creates the music, we like it, buy it, and he gets paid for it, and everyones happy. I dont think this question of "gratefulness" is even valid. Sure if we didnt exist he wouldnt have a career, but again, we're hardly all going to vanish over night. (I'm sure most of us even bought Machine and Soul and didnt desert him, so its not going to happen) What is it you think he owes you other than producing music ? I'm presuming he doesnt know you personally, so what other than music could he possibly owe you ? Speculation on Donald's poll... OK - People with any sense will list these songs as the top, middle and bottom songs: Top: A question of faith Middle: Tricks Bottom: I sing rain ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 14:26:42 +0000 From: James Choma Subject: Child With The Ghost To: numan@cs.uwp.edu (Gary Numan) I agree, I think this was a wonderful song. Has Gary ever done it live? I remember when a poll was taken a few months back, this song was very high on the request list. From what I understand (which is very limited compared to other Numan fans), this song was written and dedicated to Gary's friend and bandmate, Paul Gardiner (sp?) who passed away in 1984 or '85. I'd love to hear a live version of this song! Jim JC ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 96 03:24:32 From: "Joey Lindstrom" Subject: Critiques And The Men Who Love Them To: "Gary Numan" On Thu, 21 Nov 96 01:00:02 CST, Alex Deacon wrote: >I guess it started first with Matthew Holbrook failing to accept any degree >of criticism over his, IMO, devastatingly wretched Numan write ups. While I can >accept that no-one like criticism of their efforts, as a professional writer >also, I can accept it also as part of the job. I know that his articles >certainly filled my sundays and thursdays with merriment when he posted them but >the boy won't post them again. I guess those that NEED to know can always >waste some time visiting his site. Enough, Enough. I would expect that nobody (even you) truly LIKES having their work criticized, but you'll find that Matthew Holbrook is someone who is used to having this occur on a professional level and in fact accepts the need for it. The problem he (and many others) had with you is that when you criticize, you don't criticize the PRODUCT. Instead you run down the person who created whatever it is you've criticized. This is not a valid form of critique by any standard whatsoever. You can come here and criticize his posts, his site, or even his breath, but please: get to the point and don't get so bloody personal about it. You didn't criticize his posts, you ridiculed Matthew Holbrook personally. You did the same thing with his site in the text I've quoted above, in saying "waste some time visiting his site". If you've got something to say about his site, then SAY IT. What is it you don't like about it, other than the fact that you don't like Matthew? WHY is his site a waste of time? C'mon Alex, debate the issue, not the debater. This forum is INDEED very tolerant of valid criticism... but far less so of criticism that isn't valid, such as most of yours (with the post I'm replying to being pretty much the sole exception). And when we don't believe the critic has any credibility, as is the case with you, we're far less likely to accept the criticism. >Then again, whats wrong with a little bit of criticism, even if it strays a >little bit off the Numan track? Absolutely nothing. And criticism of Gary himself is valid also. Hey, we've all got opinions and we're entitled to air them here. >there is nothing coming through but is the Cabbie Joe trivia section really >worth the effort on his part? Maybe, maybe not. But here you've done it again... you couldn't just criticize my post (valid... in fact I pretty much agree with the criticism)... instead, you've also criticized the way I earn my way through the world (not valid). You continue to destroy your own credibility. >( i plead guilty myself, your honour) but let us face the fact, Numan is hardly >the cutting edge of music and even if Sacrifice is fucking streets ahead of his >85'/'93 output, in comparison to a lot of contemporary music it stinks. Past >glories. I don't agree with your opinion of Sacrifice (I believe it stands up well to most contemporary music, which stinks), but at least now you're offering up a much more valid critique. But I fail to see your point here: you would have us discuss OTHER bands instead of Numan? Why? This is the Gary Numan Digest, not the Contemporary Music Digest. If the liberal limits on what is deemed "on topic" don't suit you, then why don't you start up a new Digest (or newsgroup) of your own? >I hope this post makes the digest, as i've heard that despite the lack of mails >in the digest recently a number of mails have not been included on the list. I >don't know about their content, spurious rubbish or otherwise, but we could at >least be informed if the list is now moderated or not. In typical Alex Deacon fashion, you've danced around the issue again without coming right out and saying what you mean. So let's not mince words: you are accusing Dave & Derek of censoring submissions to this Digest. If you're going to do that, common courtesy would dictate that you back up that charge with some evidence. You've provided none, so I for one dismiss your allegation summarily. Assuming that you ever do provide that evidence, I offer the following: My posts have been censored twice. In both cases, Derek explained why the posts had been censored... and upon reflection I agreed with both, and wound up resubmitting them in a form that didn't flame the shit out of somebody. Derek has told me several times that the very last thing he wants to be is a censor, but in some cases it comes down to "it's a dirty job, but somebody's gotta do it." As a reader, I'm personally very grateful to Derek for the job he does (is forced to do), and I feel that it gives the Digest a far-higher degree of credibility than it would have if it were totally unmoderated. That said, I agree that there's probably room in the Numan universe for an UNmoderated mailing list or newsgroup, and indeed have given much thought to starting up something like that. No action yet, just thought. :-) /--------------------------------------------------------- / Joey Lindstrom numanoid@netway.ab.ca lindstrj@cadvision.com / http://www.netway.ab.ca/worldwidewebb/ / "There's a reason 'Wheel Of Fortune' is on right after 'Jeopardy'. Once / you've been forced to choke down the foul-tasting tequila shot of your / own abject ignorance, it's nice to be able to bite into the refreshing / lime wedge of other people's incredible fucking stupidity." / - Dennis Miller ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 23:31:08 -0500 From: tlwalter@accs.net (Troy Walters) Subject: Devil's advocate? To: Gary Numan Could not resist a rebuttal... > I'm sure a few of you reading this think I'm here causing trouble, as one or two > of the more anally-retentive subscribers suggested earlier in the year. Causing > trouble is, however, not on the Deacon agenda and never has been. > But now is the best time to avert your eyes, if you're one of the more sensitive > Numan fan. It's ok I'll tell you when to come back out. Devil's advocate is such a risky position, isn't it? :) > For the past year the Numan digest has turned, quite intensionally in my > opinion, into one of the least tolerant and debateable mailing lists I subscribe > to. Do you subscribe to the NMS? (the RUSH newsletter) THAT is an intolerant group! I see it like this: say you're passionate about this girl. She's not the most attractive girl around, but there's just something about her that you really like. Almost no one else seems to see what you see. In fact, most people see fit to ridicule her or make fun of her. And since you do feel so passionate about her, you become defensive -- to the point of mania -- because you feel so strongly. This situation is the same. Music is a matter of personal taste. It is subjective. It is merely perception. Frankly, I don't understand how millions of people can subject themselves to "country music!" I feel so passionately about my loathing of "country music" that I leave ANY establishment that chooses to play such hillbilly banter. If I'm halfway through the grocery store and those noises begin to emit from the store sound system, I leave -- frozen foods, meat and all still in the cart. That is how I deal with it -- intolerant? Yes! But it touches a nerve in me 360 degrees from the passion Numan (and RUSH) triggers in me. A passion I cannot and do not care to explain -- I accept it. I revel in it. > I guess it started first with Matthew Holbrook failing to accept any degree > of criticism over his, IMO, devastatingly wretched Numan write ups. While I can > accept that no-one like criticism of their efforts, as a professional writer > also, I can accept it also as part of the job. I know that his articles > certainly filled my sundays and thursdays with merriment when he posted them but > the boy won't post them again. I guess those that NEED to know can always > waste some time visiting his site. Enough, Enough. Never saw the need to get personal. I don't see that it's necessary to attack others -- agree or not. Some things are simply better left unsaid. Don't ya think? > Then again, whats wrong with a little bit of criticism, even if it strays a > little bit off the Numan track? Nothing is wrong with it, though tact is often more constructive than outright bashing. > Seemingly everything, if the number of disgruntled mails is anything to go by. > Why is this so, i wonder. Christ if it stops us talking about Numan's cat for a > moment I'll be a thankful man. With the exception of "The Digest Asks Gary" > the twice weekly lists are now becoming increasingly turgid and sterile, ok, > there is nothing coming through but is the Cabbie Joe trivia section really > worth the effort on his part? > > But what else is there to say anymore. Exile is stuck further out of our reach. > No tour to chat about (or taunt the Yanks with). And everytime anyone deems > to offer anything other than full on praise to Numan they are rounded on by the > non-conscious members. Back to the Devil's advocate role again. Shit stirring simply for amusement or out of boredom -- whatever. I am quite the shit-stirrer myself -- often -- but there are certain situations in which you don't poke your finger in someone else's chest. Again, tact is an art-form. > Personally, I think a little bit more criticism of Numan is no bad thing. Of > later their has been criticism of mailers for mentioning, so say "uncool" bands > ( i plead guilty myself, your honour) but let us face the fact, Numan is hardly > the cutting edge of music and even if Sacrifice is fucking streets ahead of his > 85'/'93 output, in comparison to a lot of contemporary music it stinks. Past > glories. Opinions all. There is no AUTHORITY on what is good and what is not. There are means to measure what is popular and what is not -- big deal, to me, popular often sucks. But I don't go on Maria Carrey's newsletter and bash her. CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is one thing -- constructive being a form of building. Simply cutting into someone for amusement is not constructive, rather destructive. I do not believe Mr. Numan gives "two monkeys about what people think" (I believe is the big 80's quote). Certainly not someone who believes that contemporary music is anything to compare his work to -- what an outright farce. > Hmmm so i've been critical of the man himself, i suppose i'll get flamed to > death. I'll try again. Is it me or are a lot of Gary's response's to the > questions, a little on the stroppy line or, god forbid, patronising to the > question asker. Then again we've got to be grateful to Gary for answering them > so it's a difficult line to draw without incuring his offense. Nevertheless, we > are his fans, without us showing an interest he'd be back at Heathrow humping > magazines around again (or whatever it was he did all those years ago). I think > that after some seventeen years of following the man, he would accept that we do > have valid opinions and are not immediately satisfied with an "its my career, > I'll do what I want" sort of comment. Ok it is his career but he'd be a fool to > think he'll do anything without us, ultimately. Actually, you have no reason to be critical of the man himself. I doubt that you know him. Perhaps his responses are a sampling of his sense of humor. Perhaps he doesn't appreciate being asked stupid questions about bullshit. Perhaps he thinks those who follow his every move in worship need to get some sort of fucking life. Perhaps he's simply a horse's ass and really doesn't give a fuck. Who are you to say? Who am I to say? What does it really matter? Ultimately, it doesn't. However, I believe Mr. Numan WILL do what he wants -- regardless -- as he has for a number of years. > 'Right you timid lot you can come out now. Never been accused of being timid -- and I certainly haven't gone anywhere. :) > I hope this post makes the digest, as i've heard that despite the lack of mails > in the digest recently a number of mails have not been included on the list. I > don't know about their content, spurious rubbish or otherwise, but we could at > least be informed if the list is now moderated or not. If I'm not mistaken, it has always been moderated. Someone needs to take responsibility. > Like I said i am in no way trying to cause trouble on the list, just trying to > instigate a (ir)rational and interesting debate on ther list until some real > Numan news occurs. So come on should Numan be grateful that we are here? > And at least the digest will have looked a bit bigger this time round AH, as I said -- Devil's advocate. Well, not much of a debate, but definitely a point of view. This should at least double the size of the digest as of late. :) -- Troy L. Walters tlwalter@accs.net http://www.accs.net/users/tlwalter -- Beware of the IDGAF Syndrome... (c) ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 00:51:20 -0000 From: "Robert Eggleston" Subject: Gary Numan back on Beggars Banquet ! To: I contacted Beggars Banquet recently and requested that they listed Gary on their web site links considering the success of their last collaboration and the scheduled "Random" release...lo and behold..if you point to.... http://www.beggars.com/welcome/links.html you find NuWorld and Are "Friends" Electric ? listed... I also reminded BB that maybe it was time for them to join forces with Numan again.....you never know.... Rob Are "Friends" Electric ? Web Site http://homepages.enterprise.net/numan/homepage.html ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 09:22:36 -0500 From: NIN1969@aol.com Subject: Gary Numan Digest V1 #281 To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Derek! It's happening again....all of the text in this latest digest has lines through every sentence which makes it all very difficult to read!! help! This happened twice over the summer and I thought it was over, but alas, it's back! Let me know if you have any ideas...thanks! Ruthi (an avid fan even though you don't hear from me very often!!) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 01:10:16 +0000 From: Michael & Beth Ann Damrath Subject: Gary Numan Digest V1 #281 To: numan@cs.uwp.edu OK Mr. Deacon, you asked for it. In response to your post: #1: Your opinion is certainly welcome. #2: I also have been a little disappointed in the 'Gary Answers Our Questions' bit, but not because of Gary's answers. How can you expect his answers to be less patronizing when the questions are so weak? (This may partly be sour grapes on my part. I asked a while back what I felt to be a very thought provoking question regarding the album 'Replicas' and never saw the question posted.) #3: One of the reasons I am such a fan of Gary's is because he HAS made music HIS way. I personally don't think much of artists who deliberately bend their style to be more 'mainstream' (as a loyal fan, I of course forgive him for most of Machine and Soul). Gary has followed his own path and his music is the better for it. That having been said, now the flame: #4: After reading some of your supposed English language sentences, I was suprised to see you refer to yourself as a . My God man, get yourself a decent spell checker for your email at least. Sorry, but that's the best I could come up with. Seriously Alex, it was good to hear a fresh voice in the digest, even if you're clearly mentally unbalanced ;) Michael J. Damrath ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 11:08:47 -0700 From: madhouse@themall.net (The Madhouse) Subject: Hi, my name is Alyssa, and I'm a Gary Numanolic.... To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Hi everyone, just taking a second to tell you who I am since I'm the newbie on the list. My name is Lyssa and I'm from Riverside, California, about an hour from LA and fairly close to San Bernardino, the terminal of the world famous Route 66 (and yes, the murder capitol of the USA). I've been a Numan fan since my older brother first brought home Pleasure Principle when I was in grade school. I'm 26 now, so I guess my Mom was wrong about this being a passing fad. To my great dismay, however, I recently lost all of my vinyl to my Mom's brilliant idea to store my records in her garage over the summer (major tears...quite a scene). Well, I'll just have to replenish my collection in CD format now. Gary will soon have all my pocket money.... As for my other musical tastes, I'm rather ecclectic. I recently opened my CD changer to discover KMFDM, Soul Asylum, The Chieftains, Numan, Jethro Tull, and Capercaillie all nestled quite comfortably together. Frightening, isn't it? As for my musical abilities...well, I can carry a tune in the shower and that's about it. I guess I'll have to content myself with listening for now, at least until I get up the gumption to take those sax lessons I've always wanted. At any rate, I'm thrilled to be in contact with other Numan fans, people who don't ask the dreaded "Did he do anything after 'Cars'?" question. My biggest conversion to date has been my husband, who when we first met allowed me to pop out his Frank Zappa tape long enough to play "Call Out the Dogs" and immediately pronounced Numan "weird" (a man who listens to songs about bowling ball wives calls Numan "wierd"). I eventually wore him down though and he was recently spotted grabbing my tape of Warriors for his car tape deck. Took me 8 years, but I got him! Catch ya all round the Joy Circuit... 'Lyssa madhouse@themall.net Take a ride out in my imagery of ages And heaven knows what you will find... --G. Numan ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:44:41 +0000 From: Stefano Meneghetti Subject: I need stories To: numan@cs.uwp.edu It is night, as usual I’m going up and down Milan. I have been very busy organising my exhibition, gathering together several stories from different nationalities: Peru Venezuela, Egypt Bolivia china Japan etc. etc. I’m writing this letter from a bus and now I have to get off. Cordis in Latin means Heart. The ancient believed that the memories belongs to the hart. This was the title of my first installation. Held in Milan the 14 of November in a laundrette. Lets start from the beginning: Before leaving to Japan I have been contacted by an Architect who was organising an artistic event in a laundrette. My Idea for that project comes from a dream I had more than ten years ago. I was walking gripping a white thick wool sweater, it had a clean and fresh fragrance, I knew it was belonging to a girl. My hart transmitted a bit and I felt in love. >From that dream I started to think about clothes as possible (accumulator) of memories, sometime sweet other time terrible. To wash periodically our cloths is like to wash periodically our memories. And the washing machine were able to keep such memories inside themselves. The cyclical of the life comparable to the cyclical of the washing. Is not common in Italy to use the laundrettes. Most of the Italians have a washing machine at home. So they are used by visitors, immigrants, people just passing through. My idea was to let the machines to tell the stories collected up to now. Stories from different ethnic, different countries, stories in their own mother tongue. We wont be able, to understand the mining but in 40 min (this is the time for a washing) we will have the opportunities to listen the life. At the vernisage (open day) there were around 80 people, photographers, journalists and of course many friends. The exhibition started at 18:30 and ended at 22:00. Just one day! Entering in the laundrette was very fascinating. The room was dark the only lights were comes from the washing machine windows. A deep sound of water and mechanic gears mixed with differents voices was always in the hair. Amazing. By the way I’m planning to do a book with a tape of it. I hope before Xmas. I sometimes used to gaze out at the city and lose myself for a moment. I observe in a passive mood. I really hope to see all of you soon. That’s all folks. Stefano ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 21:06:57 -0600 From: datta@cs.uwp.edu (David Datta) Subject: Is there anybody out there... To: numan Alexander Deacon <100603.3353@CompuServe.COM> said: } I hope this post makes the digest, as i've heard that despite the lack } of mails in the digest recently a number of mails have not been } included on the list. I don't know about their content, spurious } rubbish or otherwise, but we could at least be informed if the list is } now moderated or not. The only messages I have removed from this list without notifying the author have been mail bounces erroniously sent to the list. I haven't even caught all of those. Some messages, like several of Joey Lindstrom's have been temporarily pulled for voluntary re-writes. Whenever this has been the case, the author has been contacted directly. I can't even remember the last time this has happened. I believe some non-numan related messages were pulled but the author is always contacted. Derek doesn't have the ability to remove messages from the list, they have to go through me. If any of the people who are being secondarily referred to in Deacon's postings are not getting their mail through to the list, they can e-mail me directly or mail Derek. I can help track down the problem. -Dave Datta (datta@cs.uwp.edu) P.S. Derek's address is: dlangs@sunstroke.sdsu.edu ------------------------------ Date: 22 Nov 96 13:15:52 EST From: Alexander Deacon <100603.3353@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Is there anybody out there... To: David Datta Dave Datta wrote... >If you want to claim that we are randomly censoring messages I never said or even hinted that you were randomly censoring messages. So where the hell did you get that from? You must be paranoid. > come out and say it. Well I thought I had said what I thought. If you read the article, I think you'll find that the element that you quoted was merely a question to you or Derek Langford as to whether the digest was being moderated. It was not bitchy or suchlike, just a genuine question as to the current status of the digest, that's all. Why the stroppy tone? Now you may not like what i said in the article or even care. on a lighter note >Some messages, like several of Joey Lindstrom's have been temporarily >pulled for voluntary re-writes. Its not as if I think a moderated list would be a bad thing even, you could at least remove the abovementioned nonsense when it is posted. So their you have it, Datta. Alexander Deacon ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 23 Nov 1996 17:39:20 -0000 From: "Robert Eggleston" Subject: Live Debate Section on AFE To: A new section has opened on AFE, it allows Numan fans to debate on-line in real time, the current topic is "Is Sacrifice the best ever Gary Numan album ?" Post your views at... http://homepages.enterprise.net/numan/debate.html Rob ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 14:13:14 +1100 (EST) From: DONALD PEDDER Subject: Numanoids 'R' Us To: Numanews Well, the first update is in. I received E-mail from 4 people in the first day, and then, no more. :-( Come on out of the woodwork people! ;-) There's GOTTA be more than FIVE people with a home page out of almost 300!! DONALD - Down, but not out! Looking for work come March '97!! For my Resume (and eventually other neat stuff) - check out **** http://www.usyd.edu.au/~dpedder **** Just because you're paranoid, doesn't mean they're NOT after you ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Nov 1996 10:56:41 +1100 (EST) From: DONALD PEDDER Subject: Of honesty and intolerance To: Numanews In #281, Alexander Deacon <100603.3353@CompuServe.COM> posted the following lexical arrangement... >For the past year the Numan digest has turned, quite intensionally in my >opinion, into one of the least tolerant and debateable mailing lists I subscribe >to. I have to disagree with this - though you HAVE qualified it by comparing it to the lists YOU are on (which leads me to wonder what lists you ARE on! If they're MORE tolerant than THIS list, I wanna know NAMES!! ;-) ). Yes, we've had the odd flame war, but this is certainly the most tolerant list I'M on. As a counter-example to the incident YOU posted, I quote what happened when RELIGION came up. I thought that was handled EXTREMELY well. On a football list I'M on, someone posted on a Sunday (in the OFF-season), saying "here's just something to brighten up your day". It was one of those "sex chain letters". Now whilst it WAS off-topic, he was just trying to brighten up people's DAYS (with something HE had found amusing) - the reaction to this was just WAAAAAY over the top though. ONE person set up his computer to send an E-mail to him every 5 minutes for 3 hours, and the lady who NOW runs the list, actually sent him a UNIX KERNEL!! Now THAT is intolerance (I ALMOST unsubscribed because of that). The fact is that there are ALWAYS people who are gonna dislike SOMETHING, and now is a good time to resurrect the example I brought up a WHILE back of a digest being like a NEWSPAPER. You (presumably) buy a paper to read the ARTICLES. The thing IS, that it contains a lot of ADS TOO. The ads might REALLY annoy you, but the news-vendor won't sell you a paper WITHOUT the ads, so ya gotta LIVE with it. In fact, some people (who are looking for something to BUY) might actualmind. I'll agree that SOMETIMES he could be a little more TACTFUL, but it's preferable to someone just feeding you BS 'cos they're worried about UPSETTING you (thought you should TRY not to upset people). I admire the man GREATLY for his honesty. There's simply not ENOUGH of it in the world! > And at least the digest will have looked a bit bigger this time round I'm betting on at LEAST 50k - probably close to 100!! **************************************** THE NATURAL LIFE CYCLE OF MAILING LISTS Every list seems to go through the same cycle: 1. Initial enthusiasm (people introduce themselves, and gush alot about how wonderful it is to find kindred souls). 2. Evangelism (people moan about how few folks are posting to the list, and brainstorm recruitment strategies). 3. Growth (more and more people join, more and more lengthy threads develop, occasional off-topic threads pop up). 4. Community (lots of threads, some more relevant than others; lots of information and advice is exchanged; experts help other experts as well as less experienced colleagues; friendships develop; people tease each other; newcomers are welcomed with generosity and patience; everyone -- newbie and expert alike -- feels comfortable asking questions, suggesting answers, and sharing opinions). 5. Discomfort with diversity (the number of messages increases dramatically; not every thread is fascinating to every reader; people start complaining about the signal-to-noise ratio; person 1 threatens to quit if *other* people don't limit discussion to person 1's pet topic; person 2 agrees with person 1; person 3 tells 1 & 2 to lighten up; more bandwidth is wasted complaining about off-topic threads than is used for the threads themselves; everyone gets annoyed). 6a. Smug complacency and stagnation (the purists flame everyone who asks an 'old' question or responds with humor to a serious post; newbies are rebuffed; traffic drops to a doze-producing level of a few minor issues; all interesting discussions happen by private email and are limited to a few participants; the purists spend lots of time self-righteously congratulating each other on keeping off-topic threads off the list). OR 6b. Maturity (a few people quit in a huff; the rest of the participants stay near stage 4, with stage 5 popping up briefly every few weeks; many people wear out their second or third 'delete' key, but the list lives contentedly ever after). DONALD - Down, but not out! Looking for work come March '97!! For my Resume (and eventually other neat stuff) - check out **** http://www.usyd.edu.au/~dpedder **** I don't have a problem with authority - just the idiots who HAVE it ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 21 Nov 1996 02:25:34 -0600 (CST) From: hepcats@eden.com (Martin) Subject: Question for Alexander Deacon To: numan@cs.uwp.edu In stating that "Sacrifice" sucks compared to a lot of current music out there (though I wouldn't say it "sucked" compared to any standard), I'll grant there are things I like a little better too. But I am curious as to what YOU might be thinking of... If you say Oasis, Pulp, or Blur, expect to hear me laughing all the way across the Atlantic. And I really don't think Gary is obliged to kiss our asses in any way. I'm quite sure he is 1000 times more accessible to his fans than any of the "current acts" whom you consider musically superior. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- /\ /\ MARTIN WAGNER / \/ \ hepcats@eden.com \ /\ / http://www.mcs.net/~dvoskuil/hepcats/ \/ \/ Quote of the Month: "Without the element of evil, a vampire is nothing more than a guy who stays up all night and dresses better than you do." -Willie Siros, in response to a Vampire: The Masquerade player who claimed to be a "good" vampire ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 22 Nov 1996 12:20:05 +0000 From: Phil Marsh Subject: Response to Alexander Deacon's Post To: numan@cs.uwp.edu I'd like to congratulate Alexander Deacon on one of the most entertaining emails on the list over the last few months. I for one found his previous spoof of Matthew Holbrook's visits to Gary all those months ago really bloody funny. I certainly recognise all the work MH has put in to his web site and the slightly "gushy" accounts of his visits to Gary that he posted to this list. However, he was a little naive and left himself open to criticism that perhaps he was perhaps "talking down" to the masses from a priveliged position, even if that wasn't his intention. At the same time I thought his response to AD's criticism was rather childish. Interestingly, he failed to learn anything from that exchange - the section on his site reviewing each of Gary's albums is........errmm....unintentionally entertaining. His use of his web site to promote a Numan covers band so heavily was also a little...odd. Enough, though - this is old ground. I agree with AD that we should be able to criticise Numan's output on the list a little without being shot down. As long as the opinion is considered in its tone, I can't see a problem. I imagine the reason for Derek's sterling efforts in trying to introduce a topic of the month were stimulated by the possibility of some reasoned debate being the outcome. I first got into Numan in 1979 and considered myself a diehard fan for many years, but my tastes changed a bit and I bought less and less until after Metal Rhythm I bought nothing more until I joined the list. I found my interest revived so much that I went out and bought Sacrifice. Sacrifice is excellent for the most part, although I find some of the lyrics to "You Walk in My Soul" in particular spectacularly hackneyed and cliched. I also don't much enjoy seeing Numan live anymore - I went to the "Adrenalin" gig this summer hoping a smaller venue would create a better atmosphere. Instead the sound was dreadful (not GN's fault) and the new stuff will, I'm sure, sound good on CD/tape/whatever, but live it just sounded like a dirge. I also thought that maybe with it being a "secret" gig, he'd take the opportunity to play at least some stuff that doesn't get an airing very often - something other artists have done. WRONG! He did come out at the end of the "Festival set" for a few more numbers, but did no stuff we hadn't heard live over the last couple of years - and then it was over, after a grand total of (roughly) 75 minutes. Having said all this, I'll buy Exile because I recognised the new stuff to sound interesting even if it didn't come across well at Adrenalin. These are my opinions only. Everyone else is, of course, free to agree or disagree with any of what I've said if they so wish. What I really can't abide is the fawning "Gary is consistently excellent and is beyond criticism" attitude which AD was getting at in his post. However, I wouldn't agree with AD when he says that "in comparison to a lot of contemporary music it (Sacrifice) stinks". I find most music today banal, but then I've been listening to music quite a while. By comparison, I find some of the arrangements in much of Sacrifice wonderful - great use of space and atmosphere, even if some of the loops ARE repetitive. >> Is it me or are a lot of Gary's response's to the questions, a >> little on the stroppy line or, god forbid, patronising to the question asker. Well, I think he only gets stroppy if the question is put across in an impolite way. I hadn't really noticed Gary being patronising, either. I `ve been struck by the degree of honesty, patience and frankness he's shown in some of his answers. Especially when some of the questions are a little.....odd. Remember the one about the guy dreaming he was a roman centurion, then asking Gary if "My Centurion" was about his fans' dreams? How do you answer a question like that?! I think it was brave to actually leave the question in and for Gary to provide any answer at all (god knows what he thinks when he gets questions like that!). Well, I've gone on a fair bit so I'll end it here. I hope AD's post generated a good response from people and that more will feel stimulated enough to put finger to keyboard. Phil (pmarsh@tpmde.ac.uk) ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 96 10:17:58 EST From: Sean Francis <100557.3713@CompuServe.COM> Subject: The Unborn Part 2 To: Digest Numan Digesters, I was in Charleston WV recently and happened to be cruising around the local Blockbuster when I spotted the vid of "The Unborn II". Checking the credits on the back cover revealed that Gary didn't do the music for this one. If he had I guess we would have known about it, but I checked to see if perhaps they used some of the original music plus some out takes. Apparently not though. Pity. Later, Sean. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Nov 96 10:17:53 EST From: Sean Francis <100557.3713@CompuServe.COM> Subject: Weddings To: Digest Numan Folks, I was interested to read of the marriage between a Numan fan and his woman. Great news especially as she seems to be a convert. Anyway, I was slightly distressed to read that an Enya song had been chosen ahead of "You Walk In My Soul". So, to redress the balance my best friends Mark and Karen of Sawtry in the UK got hitched recently and the first dance, traditionally for the bride and groom, was the very same "You Walk In My Soul". Next please ....... ! Incidentally, anyone else out there slightly distressed at the change of tack in the old Numan ballads. For years I've loved the "I'm so hurt, you're just a complete cow and I'll get you back" theme. Now we've had Absolution and YWIMS which for me are a bit too "you're wonderful and everything's great". I say we should go back to the original line of thought; altogether much more satisfying and (let's be honest) truthful and accurate. Any comments ? Later, Sean. ------------------------------ End of Gary Numan Digest ******************************