Gary Numan Digest Thu, 28 Aug 97 Volume 1 : Issue 359 Today's Topics: "M. & J. ALLEN" and religion "Please Stop The God Film" Cars Promo Single Escher on Religeon... ONCE ONLY Gary Numan Digest V1 #358 (2 msgs) Heart of Glass - Blondie Lets Stop This Now Mike T Miscellaneous Mutterings Numan promo videos (NO religion content -- promise!) Observations oops! Posh etc Posting to the list Preaching ps Random Religion Random Rip Off Religious Issues Replace Gary with a Picture of My Car Sean's Random review The Best Of All Possible Worlds The worms are out again (3 msgs) The worms are out again -Reply Why God allowed children to be murdered ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 21:12:05 -0500 From: paddygav@kcnet.com (Paddy) Subject: "M. & J. ALLEN" and religion To: numan@cs.uwp.edu can we let this rest please? seriously, what the fuck has this to do with Numan? It was bad enough to read about what Gary believes for weeks on end, but this has nothing to do with Numan. I consider myself to be a Christian, but I don't berate anyone who isn't, nor do I hate them. I can't explain why God does what it does, but ya know, it isn't really my place to do so. Perhaps a minister would be better suited to these types of questions, as opposed to a bunch of people who like to listen to a certain music. If you would like to come to my house and sit down over a beer, I would love to talk religion/philosophy, but lets at least try to relate the conversation to Numan here on the NUMAN digest. I am the amazing undateable boy! Get out of my way! http://kcnet.com/~paddygav/images.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:32:53 -0400 (EDT) From: Micromuzak@aol.com Subject: "Please Stop The God Film" To: Numan@cs.uwp.edu My world storm folks, don't we all get it! He didn't want to write about robots anymore so he started to write about "the need and disease." Then he got on disco and Janet and shortly thereafter, he didn't want to write about e motion. So now, he is talking about Christ, God, death, hell and other religious crap. It's easy, it's marketable. It causes controversy, it causes press and so and so on and so on. This is not surprising coming from our hero. New image, new line, he's still got the time. My bottom line is, "Gary can think what he wants, but we fans shouldn't get in such an uproar, especially when we know it's all a ploy to sell more product. Lets all relax folks on the religion thing. He's just trying to make a buck and get noticed! Hell, it has often worked for me and my music (to mention God or the lack of faith therein). Those songs always get noticed or remarked upon. God, it's works like a magic formula. And this, in my opinion, is exactly what Gary is doing. More power to his capitalistic self! Enjoy Exile! Micromuzak ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 17:11:24 -0400 (EDT) From: Hpcraft@aol.com Subject: Cars Promo Single To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Greetings Fellow Digesters: This has probably been mentioned before, but I just found a promo CD single from Beggar's Banquet that I'm assuming went out to radio stations and other such outlets. It contains the following tracks: (1) Cars (Original `79 Version) 3:55 (2) Cars (Dave Clarke `97 Remix) 5:12 from the forthcoming album _Random_ (3) Cars (Native Soul `93 Remix) 3:50 (4) Cars (Astral Body `96 Extension Mix) 6:27 Track #2 appears to be identical to the one on _Random_ excpet I thought I heard Numan saying something briefly at the end (something like "turn down the volume") and since I don't play my _Random_ CD enough to know, I'm assuming this spoken bit doesn't appear on the _Random_ version. Track #3 appears to be a new name for the Sprint mix that came out in 1993. Track #4 is the long remix that appeared late last year on orange and green vinyl from Beggar's Banquet. These were the singles that had no information on them just to make them look like bootlegs when in reality BB had released them. Anyway, to the best of my knowledge, this is the only place where one of the two tracks from those singles appears on CD instead of vinyl. This CD single is a US pressing and has the code GNNYC1. Thus, it appears as if BB did create a single for promotional purposes but just how many of these actually reached their proper radio stations is unknown. I'm also curious to know if this CD single had a UK counterpart or not. Anyway, that's all for now. Me! I Disconnect From You Brian Hammond ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 21:45:00 -0700 From: "Robert Trousdale" Subject: Escher on Religeon... ONCE ONLY To: One post only will I devote to this... and only one as it is getting boring. First of all, let me start by defining my position: A) I am absolutely convinced that the only purpose religion serves is to provide a set of moral guidelines for people who are too stupid to figure out that you shouldn't kill people, etc... B) Almost every war in the ENTIRE history of this planet has been caused by someone saying to someone else "God is on OUR side, not yours..." C) Christianity in particular has raped and stolen from SO many religions it is pathetic. Christ (yes, I do believe there was such a person, but not that he was the son of God) was not born in December, but since the Pagans had a holiday on December 22nd or so... The solstice... why not steal it? Same with Easter / Spring Equinox... etc... D) If all religions are THE TRUTH, then how is it that they all disagree? E) I don't believe in God, but I sure as hell believe in Science. That ought to be about enough flame bait for now... but look, if you want to respond, do it to my e-mail, not here. Oh, and no Christians claiming to try and save my soul or argue that it's ok, cause I really belive in God, I just don't know it yet.... forget it, you are deluding yourself if you think you can change my mind and I will NOT let you put thoughts in my head or words in my mouth. Escher ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 12:03:41 -0400 (EDT) From: Shropie@aol.com Subject: Gary Numan Digest V1 #358 To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Hello everyone, I for one am very confused about this whole 'god' thing. It is very hard for me to believe. My husband on the other hand, has always been a believer and I guess he always will. Therefore I respect his wishes and in return, he respects mine. Someone once explained 'god' to me in a way that I could part understand. He said, "God made us and gave us this land to live on, but he cannot control us. He can only guide us in the right direction. Therefore we choose how we live on this earth and use our minds the way that we see fit. Those who make the wrong choices will ultimately suffer when it comes to judgement day.'' So far, this is cool with me but I start to get confused when people say, if you don`t believe, then you go to hell. So much for having the freedom to choose. Like a lot of people I know, I don`t feel the need to believe in God to make the right choices and be a good person. (Would I suddenly love my children more because I became a believer? I don`t think so.) Well, I guess I`ll see you all up there.......or down there. Take care, Tania. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 13:05:41 -0400 From: Cary Wiltz Subject: Gary Numan Digest V1 #358 To: "'numan@cs.uwp.edu'" I think it is about time to give the God/religion thing a burial plot as I am a bit wary of the periodicals wasting space with the opinions/comments/ideas/suggestions about these complexities that will solve absolutely nothing while we are here in the flesh and possibly post-mortem. Let's get moving forward with more fruitious topics/discussions like what kind of music do you think Gary will be recording in the new millennium and whether or not he will be influenced by the generic sounds of radio simplicity? Cary CWILTZ@COSORTHO.COM ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 97 01:47:17 EST From: kf9ug@gw.kf9ug.ampr.org Subject: Heart of Glass - Blondie To: numan@cs.uwp.edu >Has anyone ever noticed that the little percussion intro to "Remind Me To Smile" is exactly the same as the intro to Blondie's "Heart of Glass"? Just a useless observation. Yes I have. I can't tell you how many times I've heard that and my eyes turned towards the stereo and it made me think of Gary's music. Is it because Blondie used a Mini-Mog? It's interesting because that Blondie's song was released not too long after RMTS. I'll have to admit, I ordered Blondie's Greatest Hits a couple of years ago. Call me Nostalgic. I am, very much so. I've enjoyed the various views that have been presented by all of you in regards to religion. Except for a few personal attacks, I'd have to say that everyone has presented their views very well. It only goes to show that Gary's fans are very diverse. I don't think any of us involved in the discussion take this issue lightly. Some of us don't care about it and don't want to hear about it. Music is the reason we subscribed to this mailing list. Gary's music in particular. And none of us would be here discussing it or him if he wasn't a musical genius. The themes and symbols that Exile's tracks are very religious in nature. It's only natural that since Gary is moving toward this path that we will be talking about this topic for some time to come. I for one believe their is a God. He is the God of Isreal. He is the God that Gary doesn't believe in. He is the God that Gary would like to "kick in the balls" of if he ever meet Him. I believe that Jesus Christ was the most perfect soul that ever lived on the Earth. Gary refers to Jesus as darkness. I understand that Gary is mad at God for letting things occur that we all know and believe shouldn't happen. God didn't kill those children. Man did. God gave mankind dominion over the Earth; be it for good or bad intentions. Of course good is better, but we consistantly through the years had prevered the bad to get things accomplished. Who are we? MAN. It's us that has produced so much evil and corruption. Not God. Think about that. Sorry for the for those of you that would really rather here more about Gary. Respectfully.... Michael Day http://user.centralnet.net/kf9ug/music/gnuman/ ----------------------------------------------------------------------- God Bless es 73 de Michael KF9UG Email... kf9ug@kf9ug.centralnet.net OR kf9ug@gw.kf9ug.ampr.org Ham Packet: KF9UG@KF9UG.#NIN.IN.USA.NOAM FWARIG Website: http://user.centralnet.net/kf9ug/gateway/ either TELNET or FTP to FWARIG: kf9ug.centralnet.net ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:17:08 +0100 From: "M. & J. ALLEN" Subject: Lets Stop This Now To: Hi everybody, My last religious message: After putting a message on the last digest, and receiving lots of responses, I must admit defeat and let everybody know there will never be an end to this subject. We could go on forever and at the end of the day it is down to personal beliefs. I personally believe we come from sources beyond religion (i.e.aliens) but that is what I believe. I have got all my information from books and videos. At the end of the day that is were i.e. Christians get there information from, a book. Could be all true or it could be the best selling Fiction book of all time, who knows. This discussion could go on forever, Non believers post a question, then a believer comes back with his/her interpretation of an answer, the non believer says hold on I don't think thats right etc, etc, etc. I think if we want to discuss religious matters we should start a Christian digest. Lets not forget this digest was set up to talk about Gary Numan. O.K. religion is a topic that is in the forefront of Garys songs at the moment, but I think we've gone right off the track now and burnt out the subject. The responses I had to my question were very good, and I have read them all, and I thank everybody who returned my request, but like I said I joined the digest to talk to people about Gary. Thanks Mick ENGLAND ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 08:26:00 PDT From: Tina Freeman Subject: Mike T To: digest >From Mike T:- >At first it saddened me somewhat to hear Gary, who I admire immensely, >say such things about God, There is reason to feel sorry for him he believes what he believes and i think he is happy with that. >Who I believe in immensely That is YOUR choice Mike just have you have the freedom to choose so do we. >I find that it indicates (in my opinion, now) that Gary feels there IS some kind of higher >being or presence out there, I think you'll find that Gary was only trying to explain why he doesn't believe i really don't think it was some sort of subliminal statement. > Gary is very angry towards Him. Angry? If he's angry it will be at people trying to tell him what to do and think. > Believe me, I get plenty angry at Him myself, but soon realize that it's usually just >petty stuff and forget about it. Petty stuff?without going into details i really don't think the murder and death of thousands of people across the world is petty. Someone once asked me what my fav' Numan track was at that time i said it was easier to name tracks that i didn't like however i now can think of one VOIX the lyrics to this will answer alot of questions posed over the last few weeks by many digest members including the one on religion. Thanks for the replies to my last digest comments. Take care everyone TF ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 97 14:19:11 -0700 From: "Joey Lindstrom" Subject: Miscellaneous Mutterings To: "numan@cs.uwp.edu" First off, a hearty welcome to all the recent subscribers to this here Digest thingy. I note that a large percentage of you are NOT from the UK or the USA - which makes me feel so much better about being stuck out here in the wilds of Canada, dodging caribou on my way home to the igloo. :-) For anyone who gives a rat's ass about The World Wide Webb, y'all have noticed that it hasn't been updated much lately. I've been a busy beaver (hadda get another Canadian reference in there) but this has been exacerbated recently by: 1) Upgrading my computer to something that no longer resembles stone knives and bearskins. Got me an IBM 686 PR200+ in this baby. WHEEEE! But, compatibility issues have proven troublesome and I'm still ironing out some kinks - I'm trying to make this hardware work with THREE operating systems. 2) Got into a traffic accident while driving my taxi. First off, nobody got hurt - put your mind at rest. Second off, I wasn't at fault (whew!) - in fact, there were two seperate collisions - the woman in the Dodge Daytona blew a flashing red light, got nailed by a northbound Ford Escort, and that sent the Daytona careening sideways across the yellow line, directly into a westbound Mercury Grand Marquis (ie: me) which was attempting to make a right turn at this intersection. Here's the part you'll enjoy. I had a Gary Numan mix tape sitting half-in-half-out of the cassette deck (was listening to the radio). The impact of the Daytona pushed the cassette into the player and it started playing some Numan tunes And the VERY FIRST WORDS to come out of the speaker, about 3 seconds after the dust settled, were: "Here in my car, I feel safest of all." Spooky. Definitely spooky. Anyhoo, the downtime has been costly, the computer upgrade has been nominally costly, and thus I'm working my ass off to catch up, pay rent, and pay for this upgrade, all before the first of the month. Wish me luck. :-) /--------------------------------------------------------- / From: The Desk Of Joey Lindstrom +1 (403) 606-3853 / EMAIL: joey@lindstrom.com numanoid@ab.imag.net lindstrj@cadvision.com / WEB: http://www.netway.ab.ca/worldwidewebb/ / / "Don't take demands: consider requests." / --Everything I need to know I learned from Babylon 5 ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 10:43:08 -0400 (EDT) From: SteelHanky@aol.com Subject: Numan promo videos (NO religion content -- promise!) To: numan@cs.uwp.edu I would like to complete my collection of Numan videos. All I have so far is "New Man Numan", which covers videos up to the Dance album. I have seen snippets of his Warriors and Fury videos on the "Flights Of Fancy" British tv tape, but I am looking for the complete versions, from Warriors to Sacrifice. Can someone help me please? > Has anyone ever noticed that the little percussion intro to Remind Me To > Smile is exactly the same as the intro to Blondie's Heart Of Glass? It's CLOSE. Not exactly the same. I remember comparing the two back in high school. Probably the same instrument was used, tho. --- JAD... ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 06:25:02 -0500 From: "Troy L. Walters" Subject: Observations To: Gary Numan First off... I am not a religious person. In fact, I believe that organized religion is as (or more so) corrupt as politics. Any organization who must utilize FEAR as a tool to evoke compliance (i.e., believe as "we" say or you will surly go to hell!) has problems from it's very foundation. Religion has been based on fear from it's earliest forms -- if you doubt this, you need to brush up on your world history! There is no correlation between God and religion, except that God is used by religion as a tool of fear. If this were not true, explain the different and varied religions which exist. They can not be so different and yet all be right. Logic overrides faith here. I think this is what Gary is trying to sort out. However, God may well exist and still be a loving being... I've had trouble with this one for decades now. I've watched my mother suffer EVERYDAY of my life, from birth to this very day. I do not know what she could possibly have ever done to deserve such pain. Recently, I had a conversation with a friend. And this subject came up. And he pointed out: If God were to intervene, then things in this world would become even worse. Say, for instance, a mad gunman is waiving a gun around in a crowd. In that crowd is a person who has lived the "perfect" life -- done things for others, honest, etc. And suddenly, the gunman points at this person, pulls the trigger and the bullet strikes this person directly between the eyes. IF God were to vary the path of this bullet, it would be viewed as a miracle indeed. But, from the gunman's point of view -- it's open season. His rational would be: if God did not want that person to be shot, he would have done something about it. So if God were to perform miracles all the time, He would never do anything else -- and then when He didn't save someone, well -- they must have deserved it. Then the witch hunts start all over again. If "we" burn someone who is accused of being a witch and they are burned, then they deserve it or God would protect them. Some mentality! Let say God is a "good" parent. A good parent allows their child to develop and learn from their own mistakes even as a small child. The parent only steps in when the child is in mortal danger -- and even then, the parent can not be there to protect their child 24/7/365. This in itself is a lesson for the child -- be cautious, for there is danger at every step. To over protect the child, that child will always believe that -- no matter what I do, someone else will be there. Reality check: No there won't be! Not a parent, not another person and not even a God! Each person is responsible for themselves, and EVERYONE is at risk every second of every day! A parent who is constantly bailing out their child, ends up doing so for the entire existence of that child. And if they stop, that child becomes even worse. This too has been proven over and over throughout history. A spoiled child who has no responsibility for their own actions, because of parents who take it from them, loses all sense of boundaries (right and wrong). For, even when they do wrong, the parent makes it right. Because of the parent's actions, everyone pays the price. So, when "we" do something wrong or stupid or even horrific -- it is a lesson to be learned by all. "We" need to take responsibility for our actions. "We" need to BE responsible for our OWN actions. Because, ultimately, we are MADE responsible for our own actions. I do not worship my parents, nor do they expect it. I do honor them and love them and respect them, as they do me. Put your faith in yourself, not religion. Stop believing that you have to be afraid -- for fear is a weapon to be used against you. I do not claim to have any answers. I do not wish to take responsibility for others. In my mind, I know what is right and what is wrong -- and by that is how I live my life. There are times when what I believe to be right and what "society" has established as right are not the same. In those cases, I take the chance of following what I believe to be right -- my choice -- and understand the consequences of my actions based on what society deems as right. Responsibility. ANd if there is a punishment imposed by society for my actions, I know I have remained true to myself. No God can relieve any person of their responsibility. And those who are looking to religion for such things are fools. No person can tell you what is right or wrong, you have to know for yourself. By looking to others for these answers, you are trying to place responsibility on someone else. Take a wholly war for example. The people who claim that the war because of their religion are blaming their religion for their actions -- they are not responsible. WRONG! If one human kills another human, the killer IS responsible! No matter who told them to do what. It's called freewill people. NO ONE can take that from you! No matter who you are or where you live. Make your own decisions, and be responsible for them. We all make mistakes -- for life is filled with endless learning. If you stop learning, what use are you? It's called life -- to live. Existence is not life. Routine is not life. Afraid to live your own house is not life. And LIFE is what you were given -- no matter what you believe. If you stop appreciating it, you will surly lose it. This is not the end... -- Troy L. Walters Indiana, USA tlwalter@accs.net http://www.accs.net/users/tlwalter -- Beware of the IDGAF Syndrome... © (c)(tm)™ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:38:49 -0500 From: Bookman Subject: oops! To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Sorry everyone! I think I accidentally (I'm not smart enough to have figured it out otherwise) sent my last letter not only to the digest but to every digest subscriber. My apologies, i didn't intend to do that. M. Tressler ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:02:15 +0100 From: amchaffie@meto.gov.uk Subject: Posh etc To: Numan Digest Numan Digest I met the singer from Posh backstage at Reading Festival aat the weekend. I said it was a shame she didnt play She's Got Claws, and she said she wanted to but they hadnt rehearsed it. She said they had fun with the song and deliberately picked one they didnt know the lyrics to - she laughed and said "I'm SURE he doesnt sing 'This house is vertical'!" All in all, a very nice woman! - Met 3 other bands and asked them the same question! Replies: Kenickie - we hadnt rehearsed it Republica - we hadnt rehearsed it Marilyn Manson - we hadnt rehearsed it Still, they were all surprised to be asked !! Andy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 16:22:03 +-100 From: Phil Marsh Subject: Posting to the list To: "'numan@cs.uwp.edu'" Someone going by the ID "Bookman" has managed to bypass the Digest and post to (what looks like at least) an email address covering everyone on the list....as WELL as posting the same message to the Digest. I can only ask - WHY? Couldn't he/she wait a few days for a response? The Digest is there for a reason - a twice weekly forum. I don't remember ever seeing a debate as to whether we should bypass the Digest and have a free for all exchange of messages. By subscribing to the Digest I am obviously wanting to be a member. I certainly don't invite anyone to write to me about a debate I have kept out of and tried to ignore so far. The subject of his/her mail was (surprise surprise) religion. Naturally enough, this provoked a couple of responses (at the time of writing) which have also gone to all members - broadly in the "stop going on about it" category. The point is that this one mail is already generating others which are heading, unasked for, into individual mailboxes. I'm sure that there will be a flood waiting for me tomorrow morning when our friends on the other side of the world/big pond/wherever have woken up and had chance to read their email. I'm a little perturbed that this person has held on to my (and others') email address, and I would ask that they desist from using that email address again; at the same time, I would ask that everyone else not use it either. The Digest, on the whole, has served us pretty well so far. I have had good contact with a number of people as a result of being on the Digest, and made some good friends as well, so its not that I mind being emailed! Its purely unsolicited messages I object to. Next we'll be getting lists of records people have for sale or something - and if that puts any ideas into people's heads, then just stop right there! :-) Love and peace to all, regardless. Phil Half of the quite extraordinary Mrs Mop (or is that extra ordinary?) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 15:43:05 +0100 From: amchaffie@meto.gov.uk Subject: Preaching To: Numan Digest Numan Digest Can we stop ? Andy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 97 09:58:00 PDT From: Tina Freeman Subject: ps To: digest Sorry folks a couple of typo's in my first message When i said >There is reason to feel sorry for him he believes what he believes and i think he is happy with that. i mean't There is NO reason to feel sorry for him he believes what he believes and i think he is happy with that also when i said >That is YOUR choice Mike just have you have the freedom to choose so do we. i mean't That is YOUR choice Mike just AS you have the freedom to choose so do we. BTW for anyone who doesn't know a sample of the lyrics to VOIX are I don't like young girls I don't like boys I don't like secrets I don't like God I don't like people when they say i'm things i'm not Cheers everyone TF ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 07:45:14 -0700 From: vickers Subject: Random Religion To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Hi Everybody, I too thought Sean's review unnecessarily negative. I have played the Random album again and again. I now even like the offering from "The Orb", because I accept it for what it is, (rather than what it claims to be). We all knew what to expect, because Gary's presentation of his own songs is **perfect**, and it is impossible to improve on perfection. Therefore, they all had to do something different. And God bless them (or Gary bless them, for the non-believers) for doing it so well!! What this album will achieve is an increased recognition from at least some sections of the public is that Gary has written an incredible number of good songs, and come up with an incredible number of memorable "hooks" and "riffs". We all noticed this years ago, but largely because of negative music press, most people haven't! £$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$%£$% Thank you for the **VERY INTERESTING** bits from the interview done three years ago, at the time of "Sacrifice". One of Gary's many endearing qualities has been his honesty. Yes, it does seem that he is angry with God. I have always supposed that the last verse in "A Question Of Faith" referred to that same child murder which so shook Britain at that time. Back to one of Gary's themes: "Why does God let that happen?" Underlying Gary's response seems to be that God is a sort of human being, with a body, otherwise how could Gary kick "Him"? Surely, the creative force responsible for bringing into existence billions of galaxies --- the immensely huge, and at the same time the incomprehensibly small, cannot have two hands, a couple of legs, etc. This creative force is something beyond our comprehension. A well-known Bahá`í in the United States, former broadcaster Bill Sears, was invited onto a chat show. The interviewer said, chattily, "Well, personally, I don't believe in God." Bill Sears said, "I don't believe in Him either!" The interviewer was completely shaken by this, and said, "Well, you must do! You're famous as a Bahá`í!" Bill Sears replied, "I don't believe in the God that you don't believe in!" "I'll love you till God comes and takes me away!" Paddy Vickers ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 09:20:30 +1000 From: Bart Tieman Subject: Random Rip Off To: "'numan@cs.uwp.edu'" I thought that the release of Random was supposed to be world wide. So I was quite shocked to discover that when I finally decided to get a copy of the C.D. (I have been debating whether or not to get for the last two months) I was told that it was released here in Australia as an import and would cost me about $55.00 ($40.70 U.S.). That is just highway robbery. After the promotional interview on local radio for this release and Premier Hits (which surprisingly is available locally) how many people are going to buy this release for that sort of money. I hope the promotion of Exile is handled better. As it is I have ordered my copy of Random from the U.K. for $28.00 ($20.72 U.S.) which includes the cost of postage. Something is very wrong when I can order it for almost half the price from the other side of the world. On a different note could anyone give me a little bit more of a background on bride to be Gemma. I know how they met but thats about it. Thanks for the people who wrote to me on the chart info. Bart (Not Simpson) ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 26 Aug 1997 00:23:39 -0400 (EDT) From: JARUTLAND@aol.com Subject: Religious Issues To: Numan@cs.uwp.edu Mick - In answer to your questions (or, at least a start) please read this thoughtfully... When asking why would God let these things happen, you have to stand back and look at the whole picture. This little ball we live on is not, in any way, shape, manner or form Heaven. Expecting to live in a perfect world is to expect to live in a heavenly place. That's not what we have here. The reason things around us suck so badly (ie: children killing children) is because of the way we as humans live. If all people lived their lives the way we should, we wouldn't have problems like hatred, envy, murder, jealousy, greed and so on. But because we put our own priorities over that of a Supreme Being, we let these things happen again and again. Instead of blaming God for everything that happens, we should ask ourselves, why do we as a people let these things happen? Why don't we raise our children to care for life and not kill? Why do we care for ourselves more than others? This is the heart of the problem. God is truly hurt when we do things that hurt each other. He uses these occurances (that we created, not Him), as an example, a time of reflection. So, when Gary asks, " When children kill children, doesn't it make you question your faith?" I answer, "No Gary, if nothing else, I am strengthened by it." I know I personally will make little difference on the earth, but I am going to try to live it the way God intended and maybe leave it a little better than when I got here. Andy JARUTLAND@aol.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 25 Aug 1997 11:22:50 -0700 From: "bensonj" Subject: Replace Gary with a Picture of My Car To: "Gary Numan" >Paul Denman wrote: "I remember talking to Gary about his novel (which I >hope will get finished one day) and he said that he thought of God as >something that existed, created the world, mankind etc.. and then got >bored, lost his/her powers and failed to outlive his/her creation. He >also thought that if God was still alive, then he/she was an "evil >f*ck"." This is pretty close to the Angels in America view -- that God went off to earth in search of excitement and adventure and never went back to heaven. Then angels were very confused. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:23:43 +0100 From: amchaffie@meto.gov.uk Subject: Sean's Random review To: Numan Digest Numan Digest > Not exactly a true rendition of the original Thats the whole POINT of cover versions ! Luckily we all dont have the same taste! > Big deal. I'm glad Gary made a few quid >out of this, but this drivel won't get played much in my house Maybe you should take it to the record xchange and stop complaining ! Or listen to record 1st b4 you buy! Other stuff: >For me what gets under my nails (and I assume others agree) is that >Tenor >_misses the point_ of the song. It's like when a great song is turned >into >elevator music. It's debased. Its tongue in cheek. YOU missed the point Scott ! :) it starts out as a lightweight track but when that great acid bassline starts and then gets accompanied by thumping bass rhythms it makes me tingle ! >Christians Stand Up And Be Counted Please lets not go there again! > Gary's new album might sound like GK. >I WISH!! that would be great!!! Well personally I hope it doesnt go there, but if he takes some elements such as heavier drum loops and distorted sampled guitars it would be ace! Andy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 18:29:39 -0400 From: Matthew Roberts Subject: The Best Of All Possible Worlds To: "INTERNET:numan@cs.uwp.edu" Mick, Of course there is no good answer to the question of why God allows terrible things to happen. However I can give you a couple of the suggestions that christians have used over the centuries. 1. God has to allow "Evil" into the world for the sake of comparison. How= would we recognize Good if we had nothing to contrast it with? 2. This is the best World that God could possibly (or logically) have created - He simply can't eradicate Evil completely. It is "The best of a= ll possible worlds" as Liebniz famously said. Voltaire (even more famously) replied "If this is the best of all possible worlds, what must all the others be like?" They don't fool me, do they fool you? Of course, Christians don't even have to think about it. All they have to= say is "God moves in mysterious ways" and that's an end to it. After all,= Jesus said that you were a better person if you believed in him without questioning your belief. And finally.... Gary Numan does not believe in God. There, I said it again just in case anybody's in any doubt. Matthew Roberts ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 02:47:12 -0500 From: Bookman Subject: The worms are out again To: Gary Numan Once again, the "issue" or religion rears its ugly head... In the recently reported Numan interview; Gary stated (about religion): "I hate it. There isnt one molecule of my body that believes in God. I'm not against people who believe, I'm against the things that happen because of religion." This is a valid viewpoint as some people take "religion" to extremes, and get away from the Lord's basic message; love God and love one another. "Religion" isn't exactly the best term to use anyway, as anything can be a religion, i.e. Satan worship, racism, cults, etc. Gary went on: "Did you hear about the little boy over here who was murdered by 2 other children?... and then people try to tell me that there is a god? So I dont believe in a god, and if there is I'm gonna kick the f*cker in the nuts for letting these things happen." (Seems to me that Gary is blaming all the bad things that happen in this world on God, yet at the same time denying that He exists. Students, can you say; "fallacy?") "If there is a god then he's the most evil bastard Ive ever come across." *IF* there is a God, then wouldn't he be responsible for giving us life, oxygen to breathe, our beautiful planet, the sun, moon and stars in the sky, intelligence and emotions, the sounds of children laughing and, of course, MUSIC. Yeah, He's an evil bastard, all right. How terribly childish it is to think that God causes death and destruction in our world. There are even Christians who (wrongfully) believe that God is punishing homosexuals by inflicting AIDS on them. These kinds of thinking are shortsighted; God doesn't punish us here on earth, or after. Gary again: "Actually I'll tell you something. If there is a heaven and I do get there and see He's for real I'll apologise. I'll say "Oh f*ck. I'm sorry. I didnt think You were real" I think in that scenario God just might say; "Oh, well, that's too bad. You had your chance." M.& J. ALLEN asked (and even requested responses): "if there is a "GOD" why does "GOD" let things like Gary mentioned happen." (This sounds to me a classic case of liberalism, i.e. casting the blame away to someone else: "we can't blame the poor criminal for murdering those children, IT'S GOD'S FAULT!!) (I can just see all the e-mail flying my way already). But in answer to M & J, I would suggest seeking out a priest, minister, or rabbi and posing the question to him/her, as they could more adequately answer any of these questions better than I. IMO God doesn't stop natural disasters or make killers change their minds. Or, maybe He does... we'd never know it if He DID keep many bad things from happening. So, how do we know that He doesn't? I think that since God gives us free choice to accept or reject Him, He lets humankind go about their business without interference, basically. (This begs the question, "what good does prayer do, then?" but that's a completely different subject.) So, instead of asking "why did GOD let this happen?" you should ask "why did THAT PERSON commit such a crime?" Just as an aside, I'd like to say that perhaps Gary has received some bad press because, as happened before with his political comments, he doesn't choose his words carefully enough during interviews. Now I'm not against voicing your own beliefs and opinions, but just as any good politician knows, you have to be careful of what you say "on the record." I think Gary's religion comments could be a very big turn-off for any current or potential listeners who are also Christians. If I were a new listener and read those comments, I'd never buy any Numan recordings. But, that's just me - alot of people wouldn't care. But, alot do care. If the idea is to increase the Numan fan base, a little candor can go a long way. If any Christian Numan fans are out there, could you please e-mail me and let me know if you agree with these comments? Who opened this whole can of worms, anyway? Mike Tressler, USA PS I used to defend Numan and his music as vehemently as I do my faith. Still would, too. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 08:49:32 -0500 (CDT) From: m.r.p.@ix.netcom.com Subject: The worms are out again To: numan@cs.uwp.edu There are several things I find that should NEVER be discussed in mixed company. One is politics, the other is religion. We seem to spend a lot of time these days in the NUMAN area doing such, and trying to explain our point of view. I myself have one, yet I could care less what yours or anyone elses is. Its not my concern. I have no mission in life to change anyone, and am comfortable enough with myself not to be swayed by half baked opinions and beliefs. What I am trying to say is that Gary has his own beliefs, and ideas. He was asked a question, and answered it. It was his own opinion. He was not trying to force it on anyone, and he even explained himself as to why he feels like that. I think we need to get off the subject of Gary and our own beliefs on religion and politics and get back to the real reason we subscribe to this zine and thats the music. If you don't like the words of a song thats fine, DON'T try to convert us! If I continue to get EMAIL on this subject, and read the stuff in the ZINE, I will be forced to withdraw for a while from the NUMAN conversation. I mean really, if I wanted to have opinions forced on me on the NET I'll join a religous chat group. Mike One must put up barriers To keep oneself intact. - Rush, 1981 "It took me a long time to grow up. Maturity and me are only recently acquainted." - Gary Numan, 1997 ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:29:35 -0500 (CDT) From: Chris Schumann Subject: The worms are out again To: m.r.p.@ix.netcom.com Knock it off. Keep it on the numan mailing list or private e-mail to people who want it. "He's even got a twin like me." -- They Might Be Giants, My Evil Twin Chris Schumann ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 27 Aug 1997 10:03:18 -0600 From: Scott Lucado Subject: The worms are out again -Reply To: numan@cs.uwp.edu, m.r.p.@ix.netcom.com, bookman@trib.infi.net Fellow Numanoids: I've tried before to encourage people to avoid religion as a subject, but to no avail. Let's quote Mr. Numan himself, with regard to all this hoo-ha about God this and God that: "If you're concerned, well, I don't care." Gary has never taken other people's opinions very seriously, and I don't think he's going to start now. Scott scott_lucado@amrcorp.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 24 Aug 1997 10:04:27 -0800 From: alexander way Subject: Why God allowed children to be murdered To: numan@cs.uwp.edu In a reply of sorts to Mick's letter re:- God and questions that many people have like, "Why would God allow such things as children being murdered?" etc.: First of all, planet earth is all about kill-and-be-killed, dog-eat-dog, human-kill-human, flea-suck-flea, etc. Secondly, Christians and non-Christians (like Gary professes to be) seem to almost always have a very myopic vision about all things metaphysical. Both sides of the argument keep using Christianity (a fatalistic, guilt-oriented, import religion from the Near East) as a pivoting point. There is some stunted growth here. There ARE OTHER religions and philosophies besides Christianity and OTHER ways of looking at the concept of "God" or godhead even within Christianity. In the REAL Christian religion, it may come as a surprise that God isn't viewed as a short order cook where we can ask for everything to be prepared perfectly according to "our" design. Those who get hung up on the idea that God should not allow all the suffering in the world, especially children being raped or murdered, have missed the point. There is something called free will and that idea is addressed in almost all religions and/or philosophies all over the globe, including so-called "Christianity." Like children who can be toilet trained or taught not to eat sand, all human beings have the potential to create a heaven on earth (New Jerusalem in Christianity) or the alternative, or even the bland in-between, heading towards hellish which we experience now. Christians will also tell you that the origin of all human suffering stems from original sin, the state of being envious of God, as mentioned in that Near Eastern document (mutilated, twisted and edited by astute politicians like the Romans and others) now called "The Bible." They also believe in mysteries and the idea that "the Lord works in mysterious ways." Please leave them to their beliefs and faith. Gary's rejection of God has to do with a faithlessness that is not surprising and not uncommon. It has grown because of the hypocrisy emanating from the bigoted, political institution (present day Christianity) that has been the cause of much confusion, insanity, bloodshed, general suffering, exploitation and slavery throughout the world. The worst thing, and also the most clever thing, that Christianity has done is to systematically strip the various peoples of the world of their respective identities (and this includes all of Europe). Having an identity is having a connection to earth and therefore a reason to live. Identity is one of the most precious commoditities a human being can have. Much of Gary's lyrics have to do with a loss of identity--a very modern and a very "Christian" problem. So, I share in the anger that Gary directs toward such a dangerous cult. But, at the same time, when we all start talking about issues of benevolent white male God, a devil with a pitchfork, death and suffering and what God should or should not allow, it gets rather monotonous since none of these things have anything actually to do with God, our place on earth, or even the teachings and philosophy Jesus Christ. [Tangentially, God (the word) has a likely origin in the word "ghuta," which means "the invoked" in the Sanskrit language. Gary's first track on "Sacrifice" is rather an invocation of something "God-like" in its power.] Since everyone, including Gary, can agree that everything we experience has a source then we might as well admit that there is a primal origin to all things experienced and there are other ways of looking at that primal origin, the non-material spark, besides the Christian way. Can we PLEASE move on from this ping pong match between Christian-vs-atheistic argument? ------------------------------ End of Gary Numan Digest ******************************