Gary Numan Digest Thu, 14 Oct 99 Volume 1 : Issue 581 Today's Topics: (no subject) Bitches and Faggots and Theories - Oh My! Bitches kneeling down Comments on Least fave albums Gary Numan Digest V1 #580 just an observation List Future lyrics and stuff Manchester car parking Meeting People is Easy... picture of a boy/girl age re re re re re re re re release Rubato Rumbles Where Can I Post Numan Rarities for sale? Zodiac's Sister of Mercy? Worst of the Worst ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 01:17:52 EDT From: Numaniac@aol.com Subject: (no subject) To: numan@cs.uwp.edu do you have the touring principle, berserker, and micromusic vhs tapes that you are willing to sell? thanks, John ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 20:33:21 -0400 From: "Joel Coup" Subject: To: "numan mailing list" Thanx for adding me to mailing list. Am jcoup--aka:grayman--and I be an old(er) model Numanoid, 36 yrs of age. First became a fan of Mr. Numan after seeing him perform on SNL more yrs ago than I care to think about. Have all albums thru Numa release “The Fury”; also “New Anger” & “The Skin Mechanic”. Unfortunately, I live deep in the heart of nowhere and until the recent acquisition of a computer was unaware of more recent recordings. Indeed, was amazed by number of Numan sites on internet--someone other than I knew he’d done something other than “Cars” (a good song, yes, but certainly not his best.). Personal favorites: “Replicas”, “Dance”, & “Warriors”. Consider “Dance” to be one of the most original albums ever-infact, at first I found it abit difficult to listen to, so different, unexpected...Was fortunate enough to have seen the “I Assasin” tour in ‘82 in Cinncinati (Bogarts) and would say that of all the concerts I have been to, that show was/is one I will remember always. Still have ticket stub some 17 yrs later, t-shirt as well...Am in process of ordering “Sacrifice” & “Exile” via Nuworld, and eagerly await hearing these recordings. Again: Thanx, grayman ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 09:12:36 -0700 From: "Jim Benson, AICP" Subject: Bitches and Faggots and Theories - Oh My! To: "Gary Numan" > Incidentally, I've been thinking about Ben's earlier comment re his use > of the terms 'girls' & 'boys' rather than 'men' & 'women'. Gary uses the > former terms presumably because of their links to the coldness and > asexuality of his music - and it wasn't just him: most of the New > Wave/electronica from Japan to The Pet Shop Boys (sic) used Yes, I especially liked Japan's album "Gentleboys Take Polaroids." > 'girls'/'boys' almost exclusively. > Compare and contrast the overtly sexual singers, such as Barry White, > who'd be mortified to be found singing a line like 'now only boys that > love only boys, the perfect picture of a boy/girl age' I think you will find the boy / girl reference stretches at ten years or so back beyond Tubeway Army to Ziggy Stardust and Bowie's advancement of the insignificance of gender as a statement of maturity or identity over the hyper hip rutting of Mick Jagger et al. > Anyway, just a theory ... We've all got them. They keep us hoppin'... > in support of benjamin's comments, > my enjoyment for numan is linked often to lyrics which i can > either identify with on a personal level or can visualize as being > interesting or entertaining in a theatrical sense. I grew up in a little town in the middle of Nebraska in the heartland of the USA. Gary's music and lyrics were often a beacon to me -- a sign that there was interesting life somewhere on the planet. As for this thread: People's interpretations of music, lyrics and art are entirely personal. What a piece of art means to me can be and often is entirely different than the artist's intent. We all have buzz words that set us off. "Bitch" is a hot word. In the feminist world or the PC world bitch is verboten. In the leather or gay communities, Bitch has a very different context. Given Gary's heavy leaning into the leather world, if we are second guessing his verbage, I would say one should view the word Bitch in that context. Now, it is still going to make people who don't like the word flinch. But, to tell you the truth, in the leather world Gary can be a "Bitch" himself. Your feelings of the leather world are an entirely different matter. This explanation might make you even more uncomfortable. I am also amused, bemused, that people are annoyed with the use of the term "Faggot" by the same guy who recorded "Jo the Waiter." Maybe Gary, like the rest of the world is somewhat complex. I will share one little anecdote with you though. I was drinking Martinis in a chi-chi Seattle Martini place a few weeks back and they played "M.E." on their in-house compilation. The nice waitress turned it way up, just for me. Jim http://www.ourfounder.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 08:16:01 -0600 From: "Joey Lindstrom" Subject: Bitches kneeling down To: "Gary Numan" On Sun, 10 Oct 99 01:00:01 CDT, numan@cs.uwp.edu wrote: >Date: Thu, 07 Oct 1999 04:48:50 -0500 >From: Valerie Iglar-Mobley >Subject: don we now our gay apparel >To: =?iso-8859-1?q?sonic=20blade?= > >Dear [=?iso-8859-1?q?sonic=20blade?=] and numanoids all, > >> Thaemlitz is hinting at Numan's sexual >> desires or actual sexuality from lyrics mainly copied >> from William Burroughs books. > >Well, not really. > >Terre is discussing the meaning we can pull out of Gary's art. To >conclude that because we can find homoerotic themes in his music and >imagery we are therefore stating that Gary is himself gay is like saying >Gary must also kill people for money because he wrote "I, Assassin." I think most of us are pretty much nodding our heads in agreement when you say this. "Uh huh, that makes sense," we all say. Yet we continue prattling on about how lyrics like "kneel down bitch, be truly blessed" make him a misogynist, or how the lyrics of Exile upset our Christian beliefs. Note that I'm not singling you out here - I'm aiming this particular JoeyRant at everyone who's participating in this "debate". What a load of bilge. Hey, I'm a Christian. Exile doesn't bother me one bit. I'm also "a gentleman" who would *NEVER* say something like "kneel down bitch" to a woman, yet that doesn't bother me either. Come on, folks... remember Gary's roots here. He's an artist who TELLS STORIES with his music and his lyrics - hell, I thought that's what most of us loved most about the guy. So stop with the overanalyzing already, and stop spewing drivel like "well, I just don't think Gary THINKS when he writes these things." Of freaking COURSE he's thinking when he writes these things - he's trying to flesh out the CHARACTERS in the stories he is writing, which are told not in the pages of a novel but in SONG. The results are powerful. The stories he tells, and the characters he creates, are sometimes disturbing. But don't for a second think that he is somehow projecting himself into these characters. Certainly he's going to draw on personal experience, but just because he puts the words "kneel down bitch" into one of his character's mouths he is, by inference, a misogynist himself. This is absurd logic. I can just imagine what you think Stephen King is like in real life. :-) And don't for a minute think he doesn't "think" about the things he writes. The things he writes are very carefully considered, don't ever doubt it. If you find the stories disturbing, you have an option: turn off the CD player. Just STOP accusing Gary of the evils his characters are guilty of. It's really quite silly. (And thus endeth the shortest JoeyRant in the history of the known universe) / From the messy desktop of Joey Lindstrom / Visit The NuServer! http://www.GaryNumanFan.NU / Visit The Webb! http://webb.GaryNumanFan.NU / / I was born by Cesarean section... But not so you'd notice. It's just / that when I leave a house, I go out through the window. / --Steven Wright ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 12:07:16 BST From: "James Chapman" Subject: Comments on Least fave albums To: numan@cs.uwp.edu I must say, I'm surprised that nobody has voted for Radio Heart! Also I expected to see Machine and Soul pop up occasionally as well, but obviously the way people express hate for it is a totally different way we'd hate some top 40 shite. Anyway, I rate Gary's albums as much of a muchness. Strange Charm is definitely top, The Plan is always bottom, the rest depend on mood. I also have one to complete my list of 10. It's Music For The Masses by Depeche Mode. DM are one of my fave bands behind Numan but this album could hardly be any more dirgey. Cheers James ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 01:07:59 +0100 From: "Andy McHaffie" Subject: Gary Numan Digest V1 #580 To: "Gary Numan" If anyone wants to know what Gary COULD be doing with his next album, listen to "The Fragile" by Nine Inch Nails. I can see a lot of numanesque stuff going on in there, a LOT, but its just so much more exciting than Exile (great though it was) ! Anyone going to NIN in Brixton next month ? Andy ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 21:59:20 -0400 From: "Jessica L. Bastion" Subject: just an observation To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Hi there! I haven't been keeping up with the list, looks like a lot of negativity going on. I do have a question, though, if anyone else can give insight. I have read and I've discerned from listening to Gary that he's not Christian. I think I did read that he doesn't believe in God altogether. Now, this didn't turn me off of his music being a Christian myself. I think his music is so well arranged and so entrancing, that the lyrics themselves don't always effect me as much as the whole thing itself. One thing I picked up driving to class one day did make me a bit nervous though. On the "Exile" cd, I'm thinking it was "Prophecy", the line "Blessed are they who page homage to [No-man/Numan?]" Now, does he say "Numan"? I thought it was interesting, to say the least, to pick that up. When I heard that, I almost ran off the road in my car, because i was paying too much attention to the music! He definately has a great ego there. I like it! Star quality... Well, to be honest, it isn't one line that makes me nervous. The whole album makes me nervous. The world of Darkness is a scary thing, for sure. And some of the things he talks about in his lyrics are pretty dark, almost frightening. But damn, doesn't he make the dark world sound so sensual and attractive? It's something interesting to see, but I'm not sure I want to get involved with that sort of world to deeply. I will just be a listener, I guess, and not a disciple. Anyway, has anyone heard news of a new album? Has anyone heard of any tour rumors? I'm looking forward...hoping hoping hoping... jess ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 13 Oct 1999 09:00:51 -0700 From: "Jim Benson, AICP" Subject: List Future To: "Gary Numan" Hi, I haven't seen anyone step up to administer a new list. Has someone done this? We have lots of options, so let's figure something out before the list disappears. Jim ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 10:09:03 -0400 From: Glen Sutton Subject: lyrics and stuff To: numan@cs.uwp.edu (Gary Numan) Songwriting is not always an easy thing, especially lyrics, unless you are a real poet, and have a strong sense of lyrical imagery, they are tough to write (they also have to flow when sung). There are only so many words that convey the same things, and often a writer might be pressed to dig out a thesaurus to turn a decent phrase, other wise they go with what they know. I think people like David Sylvian, Ian Broudie, Bryan Ferry and the like are wonderful lyricists, but from totally different points of view. Sylvian is more esoteric and Broudie more pop or "common" but both quite beautiful and dead on in what they try to convey (imho), and Ferry crossing that line into both areas from time to time. Gary writes from what he knows, and admittedly, its often a "story" that he writes music to. And in these stories the characters speak, so its not always Gary's voice that speaks. He repeats the "conversation". I find it hard, as a song writer, to write what I would normaly not say in real life. But that limits me and I am trying to break that, if only to broaden my palette, and stretch my lyrical muscles and joints some. Not that I agree or disagree with the use of some words in songs, but I think often the use of some words are there to convey an emotion or to elicit one. So if someone uses a word like bitch or faggot in a lyric, perhaps, it WAS the appropriate word choice, as is the word fuck. Which, I think is an overly used word in language today anyway. Sometimes its a short cut (and possibly a lazy approach) to get a message across. No challenge to the listener to hear what the writer might mean if they used another word or set of words. And no challenge to the writer. But it does not always convey what the songwritier believes of follows. A novelist might write from a serial killer's point of view, and do it convincingly, but is surely not a serial killer. So can a songwriter write a mysogynistic (if that is what it is) line and not be one themselves. What I like about song writing, is the clever twists and turns of phrase, things that make your mind go, "huh? what was that?"- or perhaps, "wow, never thought of it like that," and of course- "yeah, I know exactly how they feel." Each writer approaches it as they know best. And some use the same words pretentiously (or is 'ostentatiously' the better choice of words?), while another uses because it fits or works for the content. To be offended by some words might be simply that we are taught or trained to respond aversely to them. Although, some really are just 'bad' words, and meant to be hurtful. But other times, the offensiveness of a word or phrase could be our own insecurity (for the lack of a better term at this moment) about the "idea" that those words bring to mind. I can't say for certain, as I can not get into everyone's head. But I know that the word fuck was hard for me to say or hear for so long because of my own feelings and attitudes about "sex". But now I am more open minded, and perhaps more desensitized to the word. I'd have to 'honestly' think about that some more. But I still think it is overused and really pedestrian anymore (yawn). What is my point? Listen with an open mind, and an open heart. Yes, sometimes lyrics are mere window dressing and chucked in to give the public something to sing along with. Sometimes It is a wonderful message, striking, lovely, provoking, entertaining, or whatever. But the point is listen and think. Because, ultimately, songwriting is about sending a message. If you hear the message and like it, listen again and again. If you do not like it, then put it away and never hear it again, if that is how you wish to deal with it. Anyway-- just a though .... ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 13:06:37 +0100 From: "Antonio" Subject: Manchester car parking To: "Gary Numan" There is a cheap car park opposite Rockworld. The Academy is a 10 minute walk up Oxford Road from there. Everyone walks back to Rockworld after gigs there. Sometimes you can get the DJ to play Dominion Day or Metal98 on a Saturday night, too - so I know what I'm doing after the gig. (after show party thing is a bit expensive for me this time around) I'm trying to remember if there are any car parks nearer the venue - but to be honest, I would not leave a car unnattended in that particular part of Manchester. Better to park in the City Centre, and as I say, there is the Rockworld car park, which seems to be pretty safe and secure and cheap. Antonio ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 10:23:37 -0700 From: "Holy Mother of Mercy" Subject: Meeting People is Easy... To: numan@cs.uwp.edu To begin, I suppose "who I am" is generally described in terms of name, age, race, etc, and so I will be a cheerful annoyance by giving no such information. Suffice it to say that I am a *relatively* pleasant young woman from Philadelphia, PA who enjoys a somewhat broad range of musical styles... including bands/musicians such as Nine Inch Nails (my very favorite), Radiohead, Depeche Mode, Death in Vegas, Firewater, Beethoven, Brian Eno, Tool, Psychotica, Spacehog, Vivaldi, The Smiths, KMFDM, The Verve, Our Lady Peace, Isaac Stern, Psychedelic Furs, Geraldine Fibbers, Sisters of Mercy, New Order, Adam Ant, God Lives Underwater, Luna, Rasputina, Iggy Pop, David Bowie, etc... and of course Gary Numan. That is a list that could continue with no known end. As far as how long I've been listening to GN, I must admit that until recently, I have only heard a couple of his tunes (guess which one I heard endlessly growing up, and of course that trashy Marilyn Manson cover of "Down In The Park" compelled me to find a copy of the original -- which is, needless to say, unmeasurably better) , though I liked what I did hear a great deal -- "Exile" had been on my list of CDs to buy for a while. Right now I only have a couple albums, but I dig them so much that I'm sure they'll be in the company of others VERY soon. Instruments I play... hmmm... I played the drums for a few years, but am in the process of selling my kit in order to join the "technological revolution" via a *faster* iMac, which, for a 17 year old, (ooh I let that slip), is a big money issue. Other things about me that a person (or people) might be interested in knowing: I hate nazis and klansmen and the like, and have a great deal of difficulty identifying their role in the order of the world... I love to employ silly goth theatrics for fun... I am told I have a Daria-esque demeanor as well as appearance -- sarcastic, irreverent, cynical... I am very involved with wallowing in my own creativity (Writing, jewelery making, graphic design, etc), as well as that of David Lynch, Salvador Dall, Alejandro Jodorowsky, em... Maxfield Parrish, and the above listed musicians, as well as my favorite authors (like Anne Rice Subject: picture of a boy/girl age To: Tom Gorham Dear Tom and all, > Incidentally, I've been thinking about Ben's earlier comment re his > use of the terms 'girls' & 'boys' rather than 'men' & 'women'. Gary > uses the former terms presumably because of their links to the > coldness and asexuality of his music... "Cold"? Yes. "Asexual"? Definitely not. It seems to me that Gary uses "boy" and "girl" exactly when he is sexualizing people. He associates youth with sexuality. I think he uses those terms to make the sex sound seedier, like dirty old men having it off with child prostitutes. Think of the lines, "Here on the floor with these very loose young girls," or "These boys of pleasure." It may also be that he thinks those words are more sexual than their adult counterparts. I think that's a common perception. When he refers to people as "women" or "men" it's in lyrics where they are not sexualized. I hadn't really noticed it before, but I think you're right about the New Romantics also using "boys" and "girls." I'm not so sure if it's sexually-loaded with Japan or the Pets; it may just be a preoccupation with youth over age. love, Benjamin Iglar-Mobley http://home.earthlink.net/~iglarmobley (proud member of 'Boys Like Us') * * * "Let the Boys out And let the fun begin" ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 18:07:01 +0100 From: My love is a liquid Subject: re re re re re re re re release To: The digest WHERE IS THAT NEW FUCKING ALBUM. What is he doing, What is he like.... the bitch, Oh sorry:-. I'm sick and tired of buying the digitally remastered version of this and that. But I can't resist it, i'm a sad incurable completist, though I did draw the line at the skin mechanic, Why did they not release the whole show???? Arrrrr saving it for the anniversary addition I expect. I was snooping on the bulletin board the other day and was interested in the 'where to go before the show' thread. But it seemed like no firm plans where made. When they are can someone post them please. Not to incite a huge debate on copy write... but... I have a mp3 file of friends, dark and noise noise but the programme I normally use is winamp, to convert to wav then adaptec to burn to disc. However a error message saying that the wav file is not convertible to cd quality. Any suggestions? Just a footnote on this subject: I have official versions of everything ever released but these version are not available nor are at present going to become available well maybe in twenty years time for the 40th anniversary! In simple terms if I could buy them i would, but I cannot so I'll make my own. Any as we all know pc sound cards are crap at best and I want my neighbours to hear these songs. Anyway I'm off to save up some cash to buy the eagerly awaited digitally remastered 42nd anniversary addition of Garys first berp!!! A proud but now very poor member of the digitally remastered anniversary club Best regards, Simon Joseph mailto:myloveisaliquid@hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 10 Oct 1999 09:15:22 +0100 From: vickers@netcomuk.co.uk Subject: Rubato Rumbles To: Gary Numan Well, yes, at one level what Terre THaemlitz writes could be taken as a load of nonsense. But at another level, it is all very relevant. Gary WAS a very insecure young person, mixing in gay bars, and not wanting to expose his real inner thoughts. His early lyrics (at least!) are FULL of opaque references, and full of transgender worsd... So TT is right on the ball.... Still, the sleeve notes are only readble in short doses. Paddy Vickers Proud Member of the Manchester Map-Seekers Club P.S. No, thank you, I don't need a street map of Grozny. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Oct 1999 13:06:32 EDT From: UK101@aol.com Subject: Where Can I Post Numan Rarities for sale? To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Howdy, Not wanting to clutter this meiling list with ebay sales pitches, can anyone tell me where a good place would be to place such ads? I do have numerous items - is there a "traders" equivalent to this mailing list? Thanks, Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 12 Oct 1999 16:22:06 +0100 From: "Forrester, Craig (Craig)" Subject: Zodiac's Sister of Mercy? Worst of the Worst To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Don McCrum wrote... Zodiac Mindwarp and SoM both had something of a neo-biker look, but they sound absolutely nothing like each other. Zodiac Mindwarp was, well, stupid and their semi-popular song was a blatant rip-off of a Judas Priest song.... Andrew Eldritch (The Sisters of Mercy, now, for all practical purposes) writes lyrics that require a tad more thought than, well, hell, I can't even remember a single Mindwarp song.... I wasn't going to reply to this as the links with Gary are now getting very tenuous, but I had obviously touched a nerve with my friendly SOM fan so to set the story straight I would similarly not categorise ZMW as anywhere near being in the same league as the SOM, I just thought it would be a band people on the mail list would have heard of. I saw the original line up of the SOM and The Mission (an offshoot of the original band) in concert many times and the concerts were always excellent. ZMW were stupid, but that was their (short term) appeal. On the lyrics side I do remember one SOM / Sisterhood song which quoted the technical specifications of an AK47 assault rifle. I assume you are not going to claim this to be one of Mr Eldritch's greatest moments. Please don't take offence to the above, it was only meant in jest. Craig ------------------------------ End of Gary Numan Digest ****************************** _______________________________________________________________________ _____ ____ ____ _____ _____ / \ | | / \ / \ / \ / \ | |-----| |-----| | |-----| |-----| | | | G | | A | | | R | | Y | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |-----| |-----| | |-----| |-----| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N | E | W | S |=====| | | | | | | | & | | | | | | | \_____/ I | N | F | O | | | | is produced and distributed by Derek Langsford dlangs@sunstroke.sdsu.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To reply to the messages in this list, mail to: numan@cs.uwp.edu If you want to be removed, or someone wants to be added, you can mail to numan-request@cs.uwp.edu ----------------- The Gary Numan Digest is brought to you via Datta Production and Development, 905 97th Street, Kenosha, WI 53143 USA datta@cs.uwp.edu and computer resources courtesy of University of Wisconsin-Parkside and Datta Production and Development. 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