Gary Numan Digest Sun, 28 Nov 99 Volume 1 : Issue 594 Today's Topics: Am I alone? Attitude Gary Numan Digest V1 #593 Manchester mistaken identity&"Whingers" My latest ranting - what, no flames? Out of the closet: I'm a 'whinger' ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 05:30:23 -0500 From: Cary Wiltz Subject: Am I alone? To: NUMAN@cs.uwp.edu Happy Holidays! Here is an off the wall question: Are there any Numan fans that might be going to see Babs in Vegas at the end of the year? I'll be there and would love to toast the millennium with a fan or too. Also, in the last digest Alec, you had mentioned the sound and lighting of the Regis Philbin show as having a Numanesque quality and I agree with you when thinking about it but would never have thought of Numan when viewing the program. Anyhoot, bye for now! Cary ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 13:27:38 -0800 From: "Jim Benson, AICP" Subject: Attitude To: "Gary Numan" Wow, lookit all the attitude. One the one hand we have someone writing a bad review and getting backlash and being surprised by it. Well, fans get mad when you say negative things about their icon. It happens, no big deal. Gary's reaction was unfortunate but he is also a rather sensitive character. A good chunk of Numan tunes are about how he's been hurt by having too many fans, not having enough fans, being too popular, not being popular enough, relationships, etc. So it's also pretty understandable. Then, again (or as usual) we have the two threads that have been pretty much running through this group since it first started, religion and sexuality. Well, when I was a teenager running around the plains of Nebraska I was very annoyed by my fellow human beings. They seemed to want to put everyone into categories and when they did they felt better. They could identify their enemies and their friends succinctly. People were commies or not-commies, they were christian or not-christian, they were faggots or the weren't. This drove me fucking insane. Gary Numan's music came from out of nowhere and said that the world was a bunch of shades of grey. Understanding everything wasn't a polar opposite of something else didn't make life any easier, but it wasn't living a big lie either. It made room for individuals. Since the 70s and 80s, I have left the gulag of the plains and have found lots of people who "don't care." Like Pat Weber. And for a while I thought "don't care" meant that they were open to or tolerant of anything. But in general it does not, it means, "it bothers me to think about such things so I'd rather not consider it." Sort of the don't-ask-don't-tell approach to thinking. The beauty of the Dance / I Assassin / Warriors series was that relationships, gender, etc was a continuum. The neat-o shit about Exile and other recents is that religion is a continuum. Yes, Dance, Assassin, Warriors are very sensual, sexy album. Yes, the recent stuff is very aggressive. But neither of those approaches to their message define Gary as anything other than someone who is at least willing to think about this stuff. So ... to make things easier for you all: 1. Gary is neither gay nor straight 2. Gary is neither christian nor not-christian 3. Gary is neither your property nor a totally autonomous unit 4. Gary is neither man nor machine 5. Gary is neither god nor satan 6. Gary is neither dominant nor submissive 7. Gary is neither a submarine nor Madonna 8. Gary is neither a ham sandwich nor well lubricated butt plug And as for what people can become a fan of if they wish, you can always try http://www.ourfounder.com. Thanks for playing, Jim Massaging my brain ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 19:26:46 -0000 From: "A MCHAFFIE" Subject: Gary Numan Digest V1 #593 To: "Gary Numan" >>. Is whinger like a wanker, wank stain or a wonga? Urm, what is a wonga ??? I think we should use it more often !! Andy x BLU ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:03:47 +0000 From: richard easton Subject: Manchester To: Gary Numan I thought that Gary's performance at Manchester was one of his best ever. Athmosphere, set list, support and his own performance. FIRST CLASS. It's an opinion, but I believe it. ------------------------------ Date: Fri, 26 Nov 1999 19:35:42 PST From: "William Wilson" Subject: mistaken identity&"Whingers" To: numan@cs.uwp.edu Hi! all, In reply to Jon Garland post last time,Jon,if you have never complained about a gig before then Gary was not referring to you,"the same old whingers on the same old web sites" must surely refer to people who consistently complain about everything Gary does these days and that CANNOT mean you if this is the first time you have posted a complaint.:) One person also asked what a "Whinger" was,well it may be best described as a constant complainer,especially in a whiny like voice,a moaner for moanings sake if you like,although the person who posted this query should not give grief to other digesters just because they want cassette tapes of Numan stuff,you,my friend,on the strength of that post can be described as a "arsehole".What right do you think you have to cast dispersions on other people such as 'stop buying booze and porno so you can afford a cd player'?If someone wants tapes,let them have tapes!!!!Not all of us are"Daddy's boy's"with endless pockets full of cash to spend.......(rant mode off!!) Looking forward to reading your guesses on "NUMAN-HOLLOW" cheers William Wilson (Glasgow Crazie!) ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 03:52:41 -0700 From: "Joey Lindstrom" Subject: My latest ranting - what, no flames? To: "Gary Numan" After blasting the shotgun of criticism into the Digest last Sunday, I quite readily expected an outpouring of criticism to be heaped on myself, with maybe a few letters of support. Believe me, I'm *QUITE* surprised at the almost-uniformly positive response I got - indeed, the few emails I got that weren't, were of the "yes, but" variety. Not one flame. :-) First off, even though NOBODY has complained (heh heh!), I'd like to apologize for the tone of that rant. It was, just a wee bit, over the edge. My explanation is this: I've had a rip-snortin' piss-off over this whole issue building up inside me for quite some time, and after Gary posted his comments on NuWorld, it all came rushing out. By using the shotgun, a few people were caught in the blast that really didn't deserve it. For example, Jon Garland: >Well, what a controversial figure I've suddenly become. I went to a Gary Numan gig; >I didn't enjoy it very much; I said so. I was then called a 'usual whinger' by Gary >himself & told to 'become a fan of someone else'. Then the abuse from fellow fans >occurred, coupled with lots of support - what a week it's truly been. > >As a loyal Numan for 20 years who has stood up for him on too many occasions to >count, been to dozens of gigs & bought shedloads of records, memorabilia etc it did >come as a small surprise to be told by Gary to go & 'be a fan of someone else'. >This was especially surpising seeing as I was referred to as being a 'usual >whinger', when in fact I'd never posted a negative Numan review before. Indeed, my >reviews have always been a tad glowing (check the Rock City reviews on AFE if you >don't believe me). > >It was also disappointing to be referred to in this way when, a few years ago, I >produced the 'Whisper of Truth' fanzine (with the help of fellow Digesters Matt, >Andy & Phil) primarily because I was annoyed at the Numan fanzines that were around >at that time, that seemed to do nothing but criticise him. I deliberately made the >'zine supportive of Gary, and indeed a few years later re-reading it I still think >that it was very positively pro-Numan. Jon, it seems to me that your "negative review" came out at exactly the WRONG time, through NO FAULT OF YOUR OWN. I have myself publicly posted a few critical things about Gary - don't get me started on the sound quality of the Vancouver gig in 1998. :-) But understand this: in the overall scheme of things, YOU AND I ARE NOT THE WHINGERS BEING REFERRED TO HERE. As you've pointed out, you've been generally VERY positive about Gary and have done way, way more to help PROMOTE the man than most of his fans. So don't be ashamed about the review you posted - at worst, you should feel a tad sheepish about the timing, that's all. :-) (And it's not like you had any idea that THIS would be the time Gary'd choose to blow his stack). The people I, and Gary, were referring to are the chronic complainers, the ones who've stopped being able to see the forest for the trees. These people, if they're honest with themselves, have stopped enjoying Gary Numan and his work. Simple rule of thumb: if you're still enjoying Gary Numan, then you're not part of the problem. At the risk of violating a confidence, I'm motivated to recount some conversations I had with Matthew Holbrook, both via email before I met him and during my visit to the UK in 1996. He cautioned me - and made sure I didn't just shrug off what he was saying, but made damned sure I was listening - that it's awfully easy to get "too close" to Gary Numan (or anyone that you're a fan of), and that once you do, the magic wears off. He mentioned several people of his acquaintance that this had happened to, who were no longer Numan fans. Face it, do you think Gemma Webb is as much of a "Gary Numan Fan" today as she was when she first proclaimed she was going to marry him to her teacher? :-) Personally, I think that's what happened to Matthew himself and that played a big part in his decision to remove himself from the Numan scene entirely - but that's just my opinion. I also think it has a lot to do with the severe dichotomy between UK fans and non-UK fans. I think most UK fans would have come down on Gary *HARD* had they attended a bunch of the 1998 North American Tour gigs - at many venues, the sound was awful and the venues themselves were awful, and the setlist did *NOT* change throughout the tour (except that at some venues, some encore tracks were dropped). But the North American fans, for the most part, didn't even notice - because there, up on the stage, was *THE MAN*. We were in awe, we were mesmerized, and most importantly: THE MAGIC WAS STILL THERE. One friend that I dragged along, a self-confessed Numan hater, was moved to say "I'm beginning to see what you see in this Numan guy." If, for you, the magic is gone, then I suggest (if you have any respect left for Gary and/or his fans) you have two choices: 1) Find a way to rediscover it, or 2) Remove yourself from the whole scene If you hang around carping about this and that little annoying thing, you're doing yourself, other fans, and Gary Numan no good at all. This is *NOT* to say that there is no place for criticism (especially constructive criticism). What I, and Gary, are questioning is exactly where some of this criticism is coming from. Is there a genuine concern for seeing the artist improve, or is it all about seeing who can come up with the wittiest way of slagging him off? THERE ARE SOME "FANS" WHO FIT INTO THIS LATTER CATEGORY. Jon Garland, you are not one of these. Pat Weber says: >> I know that this is not going to be the most ingratiating thing Gary's >> ever said, and indeed it may cost him some fans. Nevertheless, I'm >> sure as hell glad he said it - and I heartily endorse it. > >Yeah, ditto. I've gotten to the point I just scroll past the negative >shite. There *are* folks in this world who just aren't happy till >they're not happy. *I* don't have to live with 'em. Good to hear from you again, Pat. Y'know, I lived with a friend and his girlfriend for a few years, and she was like this - never had a nice thing to say about anybody or anything. I never did understand how my friend put up with her - he was the exact opposite, always looking for the silver lining. He eventually dumped her and she's been bitching about what a dickhead he is ever since. :-) >WHAT THE HELL does it matter what Gary's sexual orientation is? If >someone produces music you like, does that mean that person's sexual >orientation would immediately and irrevocably determine YOURS? It must, >else why should you CARE? I know I'm gonna surprise you here, but ol' conservative Limbaugh-loving Joey agrees with ya 100%. :-) >I've always been stunned when someone, after finding out who I'm >listening to, states, in a tone both damning and sympathetic: "He's gay, >you know." > >Geez. I just don't get it -- nor do I want to. I stopped listening to Melissa Etheridge after she finally publicly acknowledged that she was a lesbian. Not because of that admission, but because her music got boring. :-) I'd known she was a lesbian for years prior to this (it was "common knowledge"), yet I've got her first four or five albums and still listen to them frequently. That woman can *SING*. Same with k. d. lang, although I don't have any of her albums... >Although I, too, am guilty of desiring as much information as I can get >on an artist / musician I deeply respect, sometimes I think it's better >we just don't know. Then, perhaps we could get on with enjoying what >drew us to that person -- his or her art. See my earlier remarks re: Matthew Holbrook - this was EXACTLY his point. Matthew Roberts says: >Changing tack, it was good to see the real fans giving some pay-back in t= >he >Digest. I particularly agreed with Joey. There does seem to be an >undercurrent on the web of "well of course, he's not really very good..."= >I believe Joey suggested the obvious response to those people - why don't= > >you spend your time on something you DO like? It's brutal but sometimes things like this need to be said. Give someone a kick in the ass and they'll take you seriously, if only momentarily. I merely ask that the constant complainers SERIOUSLY examine why they're here at all, and whether or not there's any point in remaining. Personally, I would *MUCH* prefer to see them spend some introspective time reexamining just why they're here - and maybe they'll rediscover the magic. We're stronger WITH them than without them, but only if they still have that magic in their hearts. NickiNu says: >product. Philip exercised his ultimate right to go home. That's important. >I hope that Gary actually thinks about the comments that someone like Philip >made on the intro to the last D. I have voiced similar thoughts >before....especially about the impact of Gary doing everything himself. I >don't count myself as a whinger though. This digest should be a forum for >such thoughts, but, balanced and constructive wherever possible. I agree >with Joey's comment that one should bare in mind the man's feelings etc when >publishing one's comments, however, if a digester can only be seen to pucker >up to the big guy with their comments, then I'm not sure what the digest is >for. HOWEVER, if some 'fans' actually spoke to Gary after the gig and >moaned about thing's, then they deserve all his wrath as there IS a time and >place for such things. Straight after a gig, when the adrenalin is high and >the Man just wants to know that it went well....Is NOT it!! I think that >someone must have done so, as his comments on NuWorld came out before any >negatives here (I think?!). The negatives referred to aren't, in this particular case, in the Digest - indeed, Gary makes a point of NOT reading this Digest. We're talking about a whack of negative reviews that have appeared on one or more websites, many of which contained erroneous assumptions and flat-out incorrect statements (never mind the negative subjective commentary). Indeed, it caught me rather off-guard, because just about every comment re: the Manchester gig I'd seen here was POSITIVE. I've seen some negative shit here, but by and large we're reasonably fair-minded. We'll criticize constructively. :-) Rick in DC says: >I heartily agree with Joey's viewpoint on the 'antifan' direction so many >posts have been taking of late (that show sucked, this song sucks, etc etc). >Expressing one's viewpoint is certainly justified. I personally have >opinions on certain songs or set-lists NOT done at shows, but still.... > >I think one thing that helps me keep everything in perspective is that I like >so many OTHER bands/singers and go to their shows, buy their CD's to keep >everything in balance. Numan has been and always will be my #1 favorite >artist and I'll be happy with whatever he chooses to record, play >live....hell he can tapdance and sing duets with Pavoratti for all >care....chance are I'll find something to like about it! You, sir, are a man who still feels the magic. :-) >Hint: Accentuate the positive...opinionate the negative but don't CRUSH the >poor guy for heaven's sake! Now let's all play nicely....new Eurythmics CD...oofah! Good stuff!> And that's the part we're really talking about. Criticism is one thing, but this has been CRUSHING criticism, and the man is as human as the rest of us, with feelings. I know that if I were in his place, I'd be *VERY* hurt by many of the things I've seen written about the Manchester (and London) gigs. Not just annoyed, but HURT. >Proud member of Boys Like Us and the I Saw Kipper with Sting Club ROFLMAO! Really? Where? Alec says: >Joey Lindstrum: We may disagree about trees, Conservativism (in >general) and probably most of the other things that Rush Limbaugh and >his various congregations are so passionate about but I love that last >posting re:- overly critical "fans" bitching about Numan's gigs, etc. Thanks. Now if only we could agree on how to spell my last name. It's "Lindstrom". ;-) >At the same time, GN does credit his fans quite a bit for his "recovery" >and claims to listen to what they say. That kind of open-mindedness, I >suppose, can be seen as a window through which all style of rat feels >free to leap through. That's a big part of this problem - he *DOES* listen. And people seem to feel free to say, on the internet, things they would *NEVER* say to the man face-to-face - terrible, nasty, hurtful things. Listen folks: if you wouldn't say it to his face, zip your freakin' lip, ok? Mike Damrath says: > I'd like to give Ben Iglar-Mobley, Darren Hall, and Joey Lindstrom a big hand for >their comments in the last Digest. To all of you lucky enough to see Gary in concert any >time you damn-well-please: it makes me literally nauseous to have to read your >complaints regarding concert events that I would give my left nut to have been able to >overhear from a nearby alley. It made me cringe to read Gary Numan's own rubuttal to >these critics on his website and quoted in this Digest. I was embarrassed to be >considered part of the same collection of so-called 'fans'. > I am not suggesting you have to like everything the man does. If he released a CD >full of recorded bathroom noises, it would be fair to blast him. But to criticize his >track selection or presentation at this stage is ludicrous! If you go to an Elton John >concert, you expect him to play "Candle in the Wind", if you see U2 you expect to hear >"Sunday Bloody Sunday", if you go to see Tom Jones you're gonna hear "It's Not Unusual" >IF YOU GO TO A GARY NUMAN CONCERT YOU ARE GOING TO HEAR HIM PLAY HIS HIT SONGS. If you >have no desire to listen to 'Cars', 'DITP', 'AFE', or 'We Are Glass', then DON'T GO TO A >GARY NUMAN CONCERT. Plus, who on God's (or lack there of) green earth knows better that >Gary what his songs are supposed to sound like?!? You should hand it to the man for >adapting and rearranging his old standards to the level that he has! IMHO, he's a >genius. You are most likely not. > If you are in this group of 'fans', do the rest of us a favor: shut up, stay home, >get out your 20 year old cassettes and LPs and relive the old glories. Plug in your 18 >year old Wembly concert video and flick your Bic! Pretend that the world hasn't changed >in two decades. Pretend that music artists need you and your criticisms to keep them >straight and guide their careers. Most of all, let someone else who appreciates the >experience buy that concert ticket, you don't deserve it. > >A thousand miles away and pissed, Mike, I'm with ya. Compared to most North American fans, I've been EXTREMELY fortunate: I saw him his first time through with the Teletour back in 1980 for one show, then six shows in 1996 (hadda hop a plane to the UK for that), then three times in 1998 (Vancouver, Seattle, San Francisco). As a Numan website operator, I've also had frequent personal contact with the man (via email) - hell, he's even solicited my ADVICE with his own site. (Note: I don't intend to brag here, just trying to show that I'm a bit more vulnerable to being "too close" than many) It's sometimes an effort but I've managed to keep things in perspective and the magic is STILL THERE. I, too, would "give my left nut" to see him perform again, even though I'm a Numan concert "veteran" by North American standards. I do wonder, however, whether or not I'd be one of the "whingers" being flamed here if I'd seen forty or fifty shows like some fans have. :-) Maybe that's the problem? Overexposure? I dunno, but there's a serious problem here, and I think it's going to get worse before it gets better. Unless, of course, "the whingers" actually listen, heed what we're saying, and either attempt to rediscover the magic or bow out entirely. It's not an easy choice to make, but if you have any shred of decency and respect for the man we're all here to talk about, you'll make that choice. / From the messy desktop of Joey Lindstrom / Visit The NuServer! http://www.GaryNumanFan.NU / Visit The Webb! http://webb.GaryNumanFan.NU / / If bugs bother you then close your Windows. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Nov 1999 11:04:26 +0000 From: Tom Gorham Subject: Out of the closet: I'm a 'whinger' To: It seems like the 'whingers' have been taking a bit of a pasting over the last few digests. I've never thought of myself in those terms, but if lines in the sand are being drawn between critics like Jon Garland and Numan defenders such as Joey Lindstrom and Mike Damrath, I'm going to have to side with Jon. Why? Well for starters, I thought that Gary's comments about 'whingers' going to watch someone else were an over-reaction. I didn't go to the Academy gig, but I read the reviews on the AFE web site, and I didn't feel any of the so called negative reviews offered anything less than constructive criticism. Complaints about the lack of new material were surely unarguable - it is, after all, two years since Gary's last album, and a f***ing age since Gary claimed that he was 'totally back into his music'. So expressing disappointment that there wasn't anything new is surely defensible, especially when you consider that Gary's sole musical output over the last couple of years seems to have been further rehashes of "Cars". Not one of the reviews I read lacked a positive spin about the good things in the gig. It's the very fact that they want Gary to to well that makes some fans occasionally critical. And if fans of 20 years standing can't air a few honest views on the AFE Web site, or to the digest, then where can they say it? Should they just disappear as Gary asks? There are plenty of former Numan fans who have done just that. But many of the 'whingers' stick around in the hope that maybe he'll take on board some of the criticisms and release such blindingly compelling new music that their moans will be shoved down their throats. People like Jon Garland's obvious loyalty - not to mention a presumed massive economic investment in Numan's records - is dismissed rather harshly in a petulant rant from Gary's web site. And I'm upset Mike Damrath thinks that people like Jon should 'pretend that the world hasn't changed in two decades'. I thought Jon's criticism of the gig was that there was too much of the old stuff? The Digest and the AFE Web site are surely ideal places to trade views on Numan's music, and to see the views expressed by genuine fans like Jon Garland being put down in the same fashion as a Danny T posting is very sad. Maybe, as Mike Damrath says, the critics should 'let someone else who appreciates the experience buy that concert ticket'. Trouble is, there's hardly a queue of new fans waiting to snatch that brief. Tom Regards Tom Gorham ------------------------------ End of Gary Numan Digest ****************************** _______________________________________________________________________ _____ ____ ____ _____ _____ / \ | | / \ / \ / \ / \ | |-----| |-----| | |-----| |-----| | | | G | | A | | | R | | Y | | | | | | | | | | | | | | |-----| |-----| | |-----| |-----| | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | | N | E | W | S |=====| | | | | | | | & | | | | | | | \_____/ I | N | F | O | | | | is produced and distributed by Derek Langsford dlangs@sunstroke.sdsu.edu -------------------------------------------------------------------------- To reply to the messages in this list, mail to: numan@cs.uwp.edu If you want to be removed, or someone wants to be added, you can mail to numan-request@cs.uwp.edu ----------------- The Gary Numan Digest is brought to you via Datta Production and Development, 905 97th Street, Kenosha, WI 53143 USA datta@cs.uwp.edu and computer resources courtesy of University of Wisconsin-Parkside and Datta Production and Development. 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