--------------------------------------------------------------------- T H E G A R Y N U M A N D I G E S T (by subscription only - to unsubscribe, see bottom of this message) --------------------------------------------------------------------- (#2001-214) - Topics This Issue: 1) Attacks 2) lives must be taken 3) Digest (09/15/2001 18:01) (#2001-213) 4) not declaring war 5) Military will NEVER stop terrorism 6) Foxx 7) Pro USA 8) Terrorist Attacks 9) Sanctions? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 21:29:02 -0400 From: "Tim" Subject: Attacks I am amazed at the response in the digest at the support to us Americans. It is deeply appreciated. I live just miles north of the plane that crashed in Pennsylvania. I was so surprised to hear the passengers banded together and possibly prevented hundreds of deaths by sacrificing their dozens of lives. True heroism. I too have been giving a lot of thought to the last lines of Question of Faith. Tim ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2001 23:03:22 -0700 From: Ronald Cole Subject: Re: lives must be taken Rod Reynolds writes: >See, now this is what really scares me... two wrongs don't make a right. > >I think what the world should do is organize a boycott of these nations - no >buying or selling or trading - no attention, no media, nothing. The word is >that what you are doing is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. > >How long do you think it would take for them to crumble. > >Hit them where it *really* hurts - in the pocketbook. > >And not a single weapon needs to be fired. One problem... the first salvos have already been launched. And they will continue unless we refuse to turn the other cheek. If they want to be hurried to heaven, then fewer lives will be lost if we help them reach their goal. -- Forte International, P.O. Box 1412, Ridgecrest, CA 93556-1412 Ronald Cole Phone: (760) 499-9142 President, CEO Fax: (760) 499-9152 My GPG fingerprint: C3AF 4BE9 BEA6 F1C2 B084 4A88 8851 E6C8 69E3 B00B ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 03:40:47 EDT From: ImAnAgent9984@cs.com Subject: Re: Digest (09/15/2001 18:01) (#2001-213) In a message dated 9/15/01 5:03:31 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MDaemon@garynumanfan.nu writes: << See, now this is what really scares me... two wrongs don't make a right >> Think about WWII. I suppose one wrong would have made a right? Nazi's would have won the war. Come on now. >I think what the world should do is organize a boycott of these nations - no buying or selling or trading - no attention, no media, nothing. The word is that what you are doing is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. How long do you think it would take for them to crumble.< Yeah, I'm sure that'll go over REAL well. Come on now. We're not fighting a nation (yet). We're fighting (a) group(s) of willing to wreak as much havok as they need to because..they think it's for the good of their country. Ever heard of those folk? They're called terrorists, bro. These weren't....armed forces they attacked. These weren't...the military they attacked. They attacked PEOPLE, man. PEOPLE. Stopping all our trades wont take that away and it wont make us safe for the future. These terrorists wont stop for that shit. This isn't just about an eye for an eye; it's about putting an end to their bullshit. All the other countries are ready to strike too. This is an issue that's been waiting to be delt with and now it is. Screw the trading, man. It's time to put a rest to this. John ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 02:36:14 -0700 From: Rod Reynolds Subject: not declaring war > >> I think what the world should do is organize a boycott of these nations - no >> buying or selling or trading - no attention, no media, nothing. The word is >> that what you are doing is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. How long >> do you think it would take for them to crumble.< > > Yeah, I'm sure that'll go over REAL well. Come on now. > > John You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday that you will join us and the world will be as one. - John Lennon Rod Los Angeles ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 12:21:21 -0000 From: Markus Dietrich Subject: Military will NEVER stop terrorism To say it before, I never have any sympathy with what hat happened! I am a human, and so I can feel like I or my relatives are concerned by this terror attack! But I think some people are willing to use the easy why to react on what has happened. The easy way is to perform some military actions in order to keep the U.S. people calm!!! But that will only be something on the surface. Instead it will generate the next generation of terrorists. The U.S. problem of beeing target of terrorism is absolutely selfmade (if you like it or not) What do you think if you are in a pub and someone comes in and says "Hello motherfuckers have you been kicked in the ass today?" What I mean is that america has such an arrogant and "we have the only truth" behaviour that it is normaly that not all other people in the world will accept that. THE ONLE WAY TO DRY OUT THE BASICS OF TERRORISM IS A CHANGE IN THE POLITICS OF OUR DEVELOPED COUNTRIES, SO THAT PEOPLES OF UNDEVELOPED STATES WILL NOT HAVE THE FEELING BEEING UNDER PRESSURE OF US (MOSTLY IT IS BY BUSINESS THINGS). It is unpossible to save us against terrorism by military, on the contrary. And let me say one word the democracy! We are all so proud of our democracy, isnt it? But we will have only REAL democracy in the world when all peoples are included!!! But what we are do is, only the hold our own interests, and we do not think on others. SO IN FACT WE ARE DOING DAY BY DAY MUCH MORE TERRORISM (BY ECONOMY AND BUISNESS, OR BY PROVIDING THE REST OF WORLD WITH WEAPONS). So now if someone thinks I have no feelings about the casualitys or I am against america, this is not the case! But if want to do that, do that. Markus Nuremberg/Germany ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 13:06:56 +0100 From: Steve Perryman Subject: Foxx Anyone who likes John Foxx might be interested to know that his first four CDs have been re-issued on the Edsel label with extra tracks (different to the first set of reissues). See www.metamatic.com for details. As shocked and saddened as I'm sure we all are by what's happened in the last week, I think it would be better to move any anti-terrorism discussions elsewhere. If I want to hear some ill-informed ranting for or against retaliation, I'll take a taxi, thanks. Steve ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 15:55:20 +0100 From: "Stephen Cunningham" Subject: Pro USA Hi people. I don't think this has been included in any of the posts recently, sorry if it has.... America: The Good Neighbor. Widespread but only partial news coverage was given recently to a remarkable editorial broadcast from Toronto by Gordon Sinclair, a Canadian television commentator. What follows is the full text of his trenchant remarks as printed in the Congressional Record: "This Canadian thinks it is time to speak up for the Americans as the most generous and possibly the least appreciated people on all the earth. Germany, Japan and, to a lesser extent, Britain and Italy were lifted out of the debris of war by the Americans who poured in billions of dollars and forgave other billions in debts. None of these countries is today paying even the interest on its remaining debts to the United States. When France was in danger of collapsing in 1956, it was the Americans who propped it up, and their reward was to be insulted and swindled on the streets of Paris. I was there. I saw it. When earthquakes hit distant cities, it is the United States that hurries in to help. This spring, 59 American communities were flattened by tornadoes. Nobody helped. The Marshall Plan and the Truman Policy pumped billions of dollars into discouraged countries. Now newspapers in those countries are writing about the decadent, warmongering Americans. I'd like to see just one of those countries that is gloating over the erosion of the United States dollar build its own airplane. Does any other country in the world have a plane to equal the Boeing Jumbo Jet, the Lockheed Tri-Star, or the Douglas DC10? If so, why don't they fly them? Why do all the International lines except Russia fly American planes? Why does no other land on earth even consider putting a man or woman on the moon? You talk about Japanese technocracy, and you get radios. You talk about German technocracy, and you get automobiles. You talk about American technocracy, and you find men on the moon - not once, but several times-and safely home again. You talk about scandals, and the Americans put theirs right in the store window for everybody to look at. Even their draft-dodgers are not pursued and hounded. They are here on our streets, and most of them, unless they are breaking Canadian laws, are getting American dollars from ma and pa at home to spend here. When the railways of France, Germany and India were breaking down through age, it was the Americans who rebuilt them. When the Pennsylvania Railroad and the New York Central went broke, nobody loaned them an old caboose. Both are still broke. I can name you 5000 times when the Americans raced to the help of other people in trouble. Can you name me even one time when someone else raced to the Americans in trouble? I don't think there was outside help even during the San Francisco earthquake. Our neighbors have faced it alone, and I'm one Canadian who is damned tired of hearing them get kicked around. They will come out of this thing with their flag high. And when they do, they are entitled to thumb their nose at the lands that are gloating over their present troubles. I hope Canada is not one of those." ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 20:56:07 +0100 From: vickers@netcomuk.co.uk Subject: Re: Terrorist Attacks I have not hitherto posted about our horror at what happened on Tuesday. Very little else has been on my mind, and I would now like to put that right, and say how my heart goes out to the suffering of the Americans and families of at least 34 nationalities. As a Bahai, I keep feeling I should have something useful to add, but have really failed to come up with anything. Please God, we are closer to the universal peace treaty which Baha'u'llah urged the rulers of the nineteenth century to bring about, and which has been delayed for far too long. Paddy Vickers ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 16 Sep 2001 14:29:24 -0600 From: "Joey Lindstrom" Subject: Sanctions? On Sat, 15 Sep 2001 18:01:30 -0600, Rod Reynolds wrote: >> Sorry, Ben but we're trying to keep our future safe as well as the present. >> As bad as it sounds, lives must be taken because they have to be, for that >> right cause. Terrorists (especially you know who) has been getting away with >> a slap on the wrist for too long now and... he fucked up. It's our turn now. >> > >See, now this is what really scares me... two wrongs don't make a right. True enough. But when you're walking down the street and some guy walking past you hauls off and socks you in the face, and then taunts you with threats of more punches while you're busy picking yourself up off the ground, do you really think the correct response is to just walk away? When you KNOW this guy is just going to hit you again and again until he kills you? When he has vowed to work until his dying breath towards your death? No, you do something about it. >The terrorists achieved already far more than they imagined... America is >at a stand still - no air travel = no mail, no media, no television, no >concert tours, no business travel - this country has virtually ground to a >halt. Billions of dollars... America has been bloodied, there is no question. Air travel is resuming, mail is moving, and postponed events have been rescheduled. I missed two NHL games this weekend over this, but they've already been rescheduled for Tuesday and Wednesday. The way America, and the world, has responded to this has been nothing short of inspiring. >I think what the world should do is organize a boycott of these nations - no >buying or selling or trading - no attention, no media, nothing. The word is >that what you are doing is not acceptable and will not be tolerated. > >How long do you think it would take for them to crumble. Well, we've been waiting 10 years in the case of Iraq. Rod, are you really this ignorant of recent history? Not only have economic sanctions proven ineffective, but in fact much of this recent hatred towards America can be DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTED to this and other American policies. Now, I'm not saying this is an excuse or that this justifies the attack: not at all. What I *AM* saying is that: 1) The doctrine of economic sanctions, like the doctrine of appeasement, has been discredited. 2) By not following through and hitting back, you do only one thing: embolden the terrorists and invite them to do it to you again. You have to remember that we are dealing with people who are thoroughly poisoned by their hatred of the United States and the western world. They see nothing wrong with what they're doing, they will not listen to any sort of reason, and they have no problem at all with killing children. But most importantly, they do not have the balls to meet ANYBODY in a fair fight. Haven't you noticed that in the small amount of film footage we have of organizations like bin Laden's, the "warriors" are always masked? They're COWARDS. And they are murderers. Notwithstanding my own feelings that these people deserve to die, and die very slowly and painfully, is the simple fact that there is only one workable approach here. They are a cancer upon our society. If this cancer is not cut out, it will continue to grow until it kills us all. >Hit them where it *really* hurts - in the pocketbook. Again, this policy has failed. bin Laden's been raking money in hand-over-fist. >And not a single weapon needs to be fired. I really wish that this could be done, Rod, but it just ain't gonna happen. I really wish that, in the aftermath of these attacks (which, I think, were far worse than the terrorists themselves thought they'd be - I dunno if they foresaw the actual collapse of the two towers and the deaths of over 5000 people), all of the committed religious warriors in these organizations would see the light, throw down their arms, and pledge the rest of their lives towards doing good for their fellow man. And indeed, many people of many nations previously somewhat hostile towards the US have been shocked and outraged by this, and have pledged their support. PAKISTAN, of all countries, not only has pledged 100% support to the US, but they've sent an envoy to Afghanistan (a strong ally) demanding that they hand over bin Laden with 72 hours or bear the consequences of a US attack. This sounds vaguely important, so let me repeat it: this is PAKISTAN we're talking about. One of only three nations to officially recognize the Taliban government. Afghanistan's STRONGEST ALLY. And they have denounced this and turned their backs on them. This is utterly amazing. But the "committed" terrorists see this as a victory, not as a crime. I'm sorry guys, but we just can't live with you anymore... see ya at God's place. (to paraphrase Dennis Miller) >If there are enough people out there willing to drive themselves and >hundreds of innocent people on a plane into a 110 story tower and die in a >millisecond in a gigantic explosion - what makes you think they wouldn't >just *love* to set off the nuclear bombs, no matter where they are aimed. Precisely why this has to be stopped at the source. There is simply no way to protect America at all times in all places, so you need to head off the attack at its source. >It really makes me sad that people have so much hatred. I will admit that I feel both anger and hate towards these people, but at least in my case it is directed towards those people actually responsible (as well as those who aid and abet them). I do not hate all Muslims. The other day when I pulled into my local Safeway and saw three Middle-eastern cabbies standing outside of their cars, huddled together for protection and looking downright scared, I really had to feel for them. They didn't do this and they are as shocked and appalled as I am. There is no room for hatred of them in my heart. In Mesa, a Sikh gas station owner has been shot and killed, apparently because his religious dress made him resemble bin Laden and his chums. There is no evidence that any Sikh has had anything to do with the attack, and in general they are a peaceful people. But this guy's dead. This is something we have to guard against. We treated the Japanese people badly in World War II, I hope we can do better this time around. But as far as the terrorists themselves go, Rod, yes I do feel hatred and anger toward them, and even after a lot of soul-searching and asking God for direction, I find that I cannot apologize for it. And I'm a peaceful guy: I have been involved in a grand total of ONE fistfight in my entire life, back when I was 10. But if this does come to an all-out war requiring men and women to sign up for action, I'll be among the first in line. Freedom is not a God-given right and must be continually paid for with the blood of patriots. And if you think otherwise, then you are both ignorant of world and human history, and self-delusional. Peace is a great thing, but that doesn't mean lying down and accepting attacks upon you. One final note to our American friends, from your friends elsewhere in the world: I believe it was French President Jacques Chirac who, earlier this week in a touching statement of support, said that today, we are all Americans. And when I read that, I felt the truth of it, because I don't know anybody who doesn't feel that this was an attack upon him/her personally, regardless of where they're from. But this statement was trumped by a columnist in the Sun newspapers a day later, who said that, no, today we are NOT all Americans. Today we are all Israelis. Think about it. He's right. / From the desk of Joey Lindstrom / / "The power of one mind can change the universe." / --Everything I Need To Know I Learned From Babylon 5 ------------------------------ End numan@garynumanfan.nu Digest [09/16/2001 18:01] --------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- T H E G A R Y N U M A N D I G E S T is produced, moderated, and distributed by Derek Langsford, Dave Datta, and Joey Lindstrom dlangs@sunstroke.sdsu.edu, datta@cs.uwp.edu, Joey@GaryNumanFan.NU ------------------------------------------------------------------- To reply to the messages in this list, email: numan@GaryNumanFan.NU If you want to be removed, or someone wants to be added, email: listserv@GaryNumanFan.NU and include this line as the first line of your message body: SUBSCRIBE numan@garynumanfan.nu (email address) or UNSUBSCRIBE numan@garynumanfan.nu (email address) (email address is optional but useful if you have multiple addresses) If you want to switch between receiving Digests or individual posts, again send to listserv@GaryNumanFan.NU and include either of these in your message body: NORMAL numan@garynumanfan.nu or DIGEST numan@garynumanfan.nu ------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note: this mailing list is configured to automatically unsubscribe you if mail to your mailbox goes undeliverable for any reason. 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