--------------------------------------------------------------------- T H E G A R Y N U M A N D I G E S T (by subscription only - to unsubscribe, see bottom of this message) --------------------------------------------------------------------- (#2001-215) - Topics This Issue: 1) Digest (09/16/2001 18:01) (#2001-214) 2) A horrible week in history 3) Foxx 4) WTC before and after 5) Spare tickets 6) off-topic: try to bring peace to my head... I find killers instead ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 00:11:51 EDT From: ImAnAgent9984@cs.com Subject: Re: Digest (09/16/2001 18:01) (#2001-214) In a message dated 9/16/01 5:05:09 PM Pacific Daylight Time,=20 MDaemon@garynumanfan.nu writes: << You may say that I'm a dreamer But I'm not the only one I hope someday that you will join us and the world will be as one. =20 - John Lennon >> -Touch=E9. John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 03:23:37 EDT From: DCGaySLP@aol.com Subject: A horrible week in history --part1_15.1acebc18.28d6fef9_boundary Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Digesters..... This has been a horrible week in history not only for the country but personally as well......a colleague committed suicide the week before the attacks on the US, then the US gets a dose of high level terrorism and now, tonight, I was attacked and robbed in front of my own house. My mind is reeling and needless to say, this is going to impact my thinking tremendously about staying in this area.......I feel horribly violated again, as I did last year when my house was robbed. No, this is NOT the worst neighborhood in DC, quite the opposite, it's become quite affluent. I just don't know what to think anymore, so I'm just writing and venting. My thoughts and prayers are with all the victims and families of the attacks, but my god how much more do I have to handle in my life!? Rick in DC --part1_15.1acebc18.28d6fef9_boundary Content-Type: text/html; charset="US-ASCII" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Hello Digesters..... This has been a horrible week in history not only for the country but personally as well......a colleague committed suicide the week before the attacks on the US, then the US gets a dose of high level terrorism and now, tonight, I was attacked and robbed in front of my own house.  My mind is reeling and needless to say, this is going to impact my thinking tremendously about staying in this area.......I feel horribly violated again, as I did last year when my house was robbed.  No, this is NOT the worst neighborhood in DC, quite the opposite, it's become quite affluent.  I just don't know what to think anymore, so I'm just writing and venting.   My thoughts and prayers are with all the victims and families of the attacks, but my god how much more do I have to handle in my life!? Rick in DC --part1_15.1acebc18.28d6fef9_boundary-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 08:22:39 From: "William Wilson" Subject: Foxx Hi! all hey! Steve,saw Foxx in London Saturday night.great gig,and they were selling the very first copiies of his nwe album,"The pleasures of electricity" at the gig(was even late coming direct from the factory) and got my copy signed by Foxx and Louis Gordon Cheers William _________________________________________________________________ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 17 Sep 2000 13:03:30 +0100 From: dryad Subject: OT: WTC before and after This page has many thumbnails on it, but shouldn't take too long to load. http://www.hockeyresource.com/photos/ Dryaad We are Americans. We don't walk around terrified. - Colin Powell, 09/12/01 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 14:25:24 +0100 From: "Cadogan Lynch" Subject: Spare tickets This is a multi-part message in MIME format. ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C13F84.97005960 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone got two spare downstairs standing tickets for sunday? Even one may do. Barry Lynch barry@cadoganlynch.com ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C13F84.97005960 Content-Type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable Has anyone got two = spare downstairs=20 standing tickets for sunday?   Even one may = do.   Barry = Lynch barry@cadoganlynch.com   ------=_NextPart_000_0017_01C13F84.97005960-- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 15:21:53 -0500 From: "Val & Ben Iglar-Mobley" Subject: off-topic: try to bring peace to my head... I find killers instead I was going to let this drop. I made my post advocating for peace, Joey countered with his, we'd both made our comments. I really didn't want to get into a debate about it, but a few others have jumped in with some other ideas, so I think I'd like to respond. Not to turn this into a heated argument, just to clarify the pacifist position. > Think about WWII. The difference is then the US was attacked by another state. These were terrorists, not a government. There were no Afghani fighter planes firing missiles into the twin towers. Going to war against Afghanistan is not justified. Invading their country in a ground confrontation to apprehend bin Laden will cause a higher death toll-- on both sides of the conflict-- than not, so we have to ask if we would really "save lives" by taking such a step. A more practical measure would be to tighten security in our air traffic, and consider the underlying hostility extremists like this have and where it's coming from. If we actively worked toward a lasting peace between Israel and the Palestinians, I think that would go a long way toward undercutting anti-US hatred. Establishing an independent Palestinian state would be an excellent first step. > All the other countries are ready to strike too. Not true. The European Union leaders have back-peddled in their support for armed conflict, in response to Bush's "act of war" rhetoric. See this news story: http://us.news2.yimg.com/f/42/31/7m/dailynews.yahoo.com/htx/ap/20010914/us/a ttacks_europe_1.html > True enough. But when you're walking down the street and > some guy walking past you hauls off and socks you in the face, > and then taunts you with threats of more punches while you're > busy picking yourself up off the ground, do you really think the > correct response is to just walk away? No, I think I would call the police and have him arrested. I don't think I would pull a gun on him. > Well, we've been waiting 10 years in the case of Iraq. Saddam Hussein has no incentive to negotiate, because the US has stated the sanctions will not be lifted until he is out of office. However much we might like to see him removed from power, there is no mechanism in place for democratic elections nor are there any other factions in Iraq that could oust him in a coup, so what is he to do? If we agree that he's a bloody dictator with little or no concern for his people, what is his incentive to cooperate if he wishes to remain in power? > 1) The doctrine of economic sanctions, like the doctrine of > appeasement, has been discredited. Also not true. Even before the Persian Gulf war, high level US officials operating out of Saudi Arabia released communiques from Iraqi diplomats that offered to withdraw from Kuwait in return for US consideration of UN resolutions condemning Israeli occupation of the Gaza strip, the west bank, and the Syrian Golan Hieghts. Our officials described this offer as "serious and negotiable," and this before a single shot had been fired, though economic sanctions had been put into effect. It suggests that the sanctions had worked to bring them to the bargaining table (though, unfortunately, to no avail, since Bush sr. said throughout "there will be no negotiations" effectively ending any hope for a peaceful resolution). Sanctions can have a tremendous effect. > 2) By not following through and hitting back, you do only one > thing: embolden the terrorists and invite them to do it to you > again. That's not all such a stance accomplishes. It also demonstrates a refusal to practice the same methods of violence as terrorists. It retains the moral high ground. Right now we have the world's sympathies. If we abandon that moral high ground and resort to violence in response-- carrying out bombing runs against Afghanistan and killing innocent Afghani civilians-- we risk losing that sympathy and further alienating extremists. > They see nothing wrong with what they're doing, > they will not listen to any sort of reason... I think that's too demonizing. Painful as it is for us to acknowledge, the terrorists did have their reasons why they acted as they did. They're not insane. They don't act randomly. There was a purpose they had in mind. I'm not saying they were justified. They were not. There is never any justification for terrorism. There are, however, explanations. > Today we are all Israelis. Oh, no. No, no, no. We should not turn this into an all-out "us versus them" mindset unifying us all against Arab states or Muslims. That's too horrible to consider. I may be a pacifist, I may disagree with people advocating for war, but I do stand with the rest of my country. I held a candle at my village square this past Friday evening. I'm proud of my country and my people. But I'm trying to make a deeper point: that before we're American or Canadian or British or Israeli or Palestinian or Afghani... we're all human beings first. This was not a Muslim or Arab act. It was a terrorist act. We shouldn't use it to demonize Arabs or Muslims in the same way the Oklahoma City bombing didn't teach us to demonize all white people or Americans. > Please God, we are closer to the > universal peace treaty which Baha'u'llah > urged the rulers of the nineteenth > century to bring about, and which has > been delayed for far too long. I'm an atheist, Paddy, but I'll join you in that prayer. If anyone else feels similarly, I've heard a suggestion I'd like to pass along here. Now, while Arab-Americans (and Arab-Canadians, apparently) are fearful of suffering hatred and random violence because of their religion or countries of origin, those of us who are opposed to that hatred can show our support for our countryfolk-- ALL of them-- by patronizing Arab immigrant-owned businesses. For example, we can make an effort to eat out at middle-eastern restaurants. That candlelight vigil Valerie and I attended Friday evening was to show support and solidarity with other Americans. Afterward, Val and I walked to our favorite local middle-eastern restaurant, Grape Leaves, to further show our support for ALL Americans, including Arab-Americans. I invite any who feels similarly to join us for dinner, or lunch, or breakfast if your local deli is open in the early hours. And I invite you to try the baba ghanough! Mmm, baba ghanough... Ben * * * I don't remember if she's black or white This is the heart ------------------------------ End numan@garynumanfan.nu Digest [09/17/2001 18:01] --------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- T H E G A R Y N U M A N D I G E S T is produced, moderated, and distributed by Derek Langsford, Dave Datta, and Joey Lindstrom dlangs@sunstroke.sdsu.edu, datta@cs.uwp.edu, Joey@GaryNumanFan.NU ------------------------------------------------------------------- To reply to the messages in this list, email: numan@GaryNumanFan.NU If you want to be removed, or someone wants to be added, email: listserv@GaryNumanFan.NU and include this line as the first line of your message body: SUBSCRIBE numan@garynumanfan.nu (email address) or UNSUBSCRIBE numan@garynumanfan.nu (email address) (email address is optional but useful if you have multiple addresses) If you want to switch between receiving Digests or individual posts, again send to listserv@GaryNumanFan.NU and include either of these in your message body: NORMAL numan@garynumanfan.nu or DIGEST numan@garynumanfan.nu ------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note: this mailing list is configured to automatically unsubscribe you if mail to your mailbox goes undeliverable for any reason. If you suddenly stop receiving this list, you should assume you've been automatically unsubscribed and should then manually resubscribe. ------------------------------------------------------------------ The Gary Numan Digest is brought to you via Joey Lindstrom and the GaryNUmanFan server (Joey@GaryNumanFan.NU) All of the opinions in this digest belong to the respective authors and do not necessarily agree with those of the Digest Producers. --------------------------------------------------------------------------