--------------------------------------------------------------------- T H E G A R Y N U M A N D I G E S T (by subscription only - to unsubscribe, see bottom of this message) --------------------------------------------------------------------- (#2001-216) - Topics This Issue: 1) off-topic: try to bring peace to my head... I find killers instead 2) Digest (09/17/2001 18:01) (#2001-215) 3) Digest (09/17/2001 18:01) (#2001-215) 4) A change in subject? 5) Great timing, Mike 6) Rick in DC 7) We Are All Israelis ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 17:22:26 -0700 From: Ronald Cole Subject: Re: off-topic: try to bring peace to my head... I find killers instead *sigh* "Val & Ben Iglar-Mobley" writes: >I was going to let this drop. ...but...I think I'd like to respond... >just to clarify the pacifist position. > >Going to war against Afghanistan is not justified. Of course it is. In the US, aiding and abetting a criminal is a separate criminal act. >> True enough. But when you're walking down the street and >> some guy walking past you hauls off and socks you in the face, >> and then taunts you with threats of more punches while you're >> busy picking yourself up off the ground, do you really think the >> correct response is to just walk away? > >No, I think I would call the police and have him arrested. Gee, a "pacifist" using force? >I don't think I would pull a gun on him. No, you'd have someone else pull a gun on him. >Sanctions can have a tremendous effect. You bet they can! Pearl Harbor was a direct result of economic sanctions placed on Japan... Perhaps you should watch the History Channel more often. >That's not all such a stance accomplishes. It also demonstrates a refusal >to practice the same methods of violence as terrorists. It retains the >moral high ground. Moral high ground is of no use if you're dead. Force is justifiable to protect life and liberty. And you believe that, too, since you'd call the police if attacked. I'd suggest reading Frederic Bastiat's "The Law" for a lucid argument about why force is needed to keep injustice from reigning. >I may be a pacifist, Maybe you'd like to think so. I know different. -- Forte International, P.O. Box 1412, Ridgecrest, CA 93556-1412 Ronald Cole Phone: (760) 499-9142 President, CEO Fax: (760) 499-9152 My GPG fingerprint: C3AF 4BE9 BEA6 F1C2 B084 4A88 8851 E6C8 69E3 B00B ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:25:23 EDT From: ImAnAgent9984@cs.com Subject: Re: Digest (09/17/2001 18:01) (#2001-215) In a message dated 9/17/01 5:03:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MDaemon@garynumanfan.nu writes: << No, I think I would call the police and have him arrested. I don't think I would pull a gun on him. >> I don't think that's what Joey meant. We have to fight for our freedom here because it's being threatened. If we don't deal with it in a face to face fashion then we're just encouraging them to do it again. I think that's what he was getting at by saying that. John ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 17 Sep 2001 23:38:02 EDT From: ImAnAgent9984@cs.com Subject: Re: Digest (09/17/2001 18:01) (#2001-215) In a message dated 9/17/01 5:03:57 PM Pacific Daylight Time, MDaemon@garynumanfan.nu writes: << No, I think I would call the police and have him arrested. I don't think I would pull a gun on him. >> What police? There's no police in this situation. We ARE the police. We're practically the world police (as I've heard it put). We have to ..."arrest" terrorism. If that makes any sense. Listen, I may be young and unknowing of a deal of things but I'm trying to think of the future here as well as the present. I definitely want to be safe growing up for the rest of my life and have a safe future for whatever family I can hope to raise. That's not too much to ask. It's something I think is worth fighting for. As far as innocents being killed during this war.....I'd hate to say it but it's gonna' happen no matter what. That's pretty much a given in any war. Even Cheney was saying it's going to happen undoubtedly. I do feel for them though. Without a doubt. John ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:14:50 +0100 From: Tom Gorham Subject: A change in subject? Folks, Would anyone be terribly offended if we dropped the whole thing about the WTC and America and suitable music for bombings? I don't want to see members of this list to fall out over its aftermath - and that will sadly be inevitable if this subject continues to dominate the digest. Surely there are better places for this dreadful tragedy to be discussed? Even taking things off-list would minimise the risk of this turning into a flame-fest. Tom (Who is selfishly thankful that nobody has yet brought up the fact that more than two million civilians have been killed in Congo's civil war.) ------------------ RFC822 Header Follows ------------------ From: Tom Gorham To: Subject: A change in subject? Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 17:04:39 +0100 Message-Id: <20010918160439.9911@mail.easynet.co.uk> X-Mailer: CTM PowerMail 3.0.9v2 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit ----------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 14:04:33 -0400 From: Michael Tressler Subject: Great timing, Mike Man, I picked a hell of a time to resubscribe to the Digest (Friday before last Tuesday). I'll try to be brief on this whole US attack issue. Like Ben, I wasn't going to say very much about it, but with other letters circulating I wanted to add a couple things as well. First off, Ben seems to think that favoring some type of military response to the attacks makes one a killer. That is utterly false. I am staunchly pro-life and object to needless destruction of human life, anywhere and under any circumstance. However, the operative word here is "needless". If you kill someone in self-defense it is not murder. If Matthew Sheppard or James Byrd or Jesse Dirkising had had a gun (as I wish they would have) do you not think they would have used that gun against their assailants? And if so, there's no one who would call it murder. If on Tuesday it were an Afghan fighter jet flying over New York with guns blazing, would it have been murder to shoot down that jet? No. What I'm getting at is I think this all boils down to a matter of self-defense. We need to strike before being struck again; it's that simple. In 1993 an assailant or group of assailants set off a bomb at the World Trade Center, giving the U.S. a metaphorical bloody nose. We did nothing or next to nothing about it. Years later, the assailant returned to try to stick a knife through the heart of the United States. He didn't quite succeed. What will he do next time, if we do nothing about it again? I think it's great to be an idealist, I really do. Everyone wants to live in a perfect world. But sooner or later reality comes along and slaps you in the face. That slap came on September 11 and unfortunately for some people that slap wasn't hard enough to wake them from their passiveness. Let’s get real here for a minute. We’re dealing with TERRORISTS. They don’t give a rat's ass about human life; not their own nor innocent civilian. Why in God’s name would they even begin to care about "economic sanctions"? And I’m equally sure they're just quaking in their boots, thinking about being captured and brought in front of America's "Justice System". Laughing in their boots would be more like it. Let me emphasize this last point: ***The only thing terrorists understand is destruction, and the only effective way of preventing more catastrophes like Tuesday's is to destroy (bomb, kill) the terrorists themselves. And if there are any left standing, let's hope to God they'll realize that no act of terrorism is worth the retribution that would have to be paid. It ain't pretty. But then, reality seldom is. Looking forward to returning to something somewhat resembling normalcy, Mike ...when you're walking down the street and > some guy walking past you hauls off and socks you in the face, > and then taunts you with threats of more punches while you're > busy picking yourself up off the ground, do you really think the > correct response is to just walk away? > No, I think I would call the police and have him arrested. I don't think I > would pull a gun on him. Sorry Ben, but if the guy wants to kill you, you'd be dead before the squad car even leaves the station. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 22:51:15 +0100 From: vickers@netcomuk.co.uk Subject: Re: Rick in DC Dear Rick, We all feel for you, but most are probably like me, and do not know what to say! I don't understand people who hurt others..... You may end up moving! Paddy Vickers ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 18 Sep 2001 16:33:00 -0600 From: "Joey Lindstrom" Subject: We Are All Israelis I'm short for time today so I'll respond to the rest of this post later. For now, I just want to address one point resulting out of miscommunication: On Mon, 17 Sep 2001 18:01:22 -0600, "Val & Ben Iglar-Mobley" wrote: >> Today we are all Israelis. > >Oh, no. No, no, no. We should not turn this into an all-out "us versus >them" mindset unifying us all against Arab states or Muslims. That's too >horrible to consider. Not at all what was intended by the remark when made by that columnist (I guess I should have included some more of the preceding text from the article). What it means is that we are now a people who must now live with the ongoing threat of terrorist attack - something Israelis have had to do since their state was created (and even before). I do not consider all Arabs or Muslims to be my enemy. Not in the slightest. I see sporadic incidents of violence taking place against them, including the murder of a Sikh gas-station owner in Mesa, AZ, as being flat-out wrong. We are not at war with Arabs and Muslims. We are at war with terrorists, of all stripes, be they fundamentalist Muslims, the IRA, or whatever brand of terrorist they happen to be. And make no mistake: war has been declared, and war it is. / From the desk of Joey Lindstrom / / "The best way to understand someone is to fight him, make him angry, that's / when you see the real person." / --Everything I Need To Know I Learned From Babylon 5 ------------------------------ End numan@garynumanfan.nu Digest [09/18/2001 18:01] --------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------------------- T H E G A R Y N U M A N D I G E S T is produced, moderated, and distributed by Derek Langsford, Dave Datta, and Joey Lindstrom dlangs@sunstroke.sdsu.edu, datta@cs.uwp.edu, Joey@GaryNumanFan.NU ------------------------------------------------------------------- To reply to the messages in this list, email: numan@GaryNumanFan.NU If you want to be removed, or someone wants to be added, email: listserv@GaryNumanFan.NU and include this line as the first line of your message body: SUBSCRIBE numan@garynumanfan.nu (email address) or UNSUBSCRIBE numan@garynumanfan.nu (email address) (email address is optional but useful if you have multiple addresses) If you want to switch between receiving Digests or individual posts, again send to listserv@GaryNumanFan.NU and include either of these in your message body: NORMAL numan@garynumanfan.nu or DIGEST numan@garynumanfan.nu ------------------------------------------------------------------ Please note: this mailing list is configured to automatically unsubscribe you if mail to your mailbox goes undeliverable for any reason. 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